Colorado Doctor Sounds Alarm on Marijuana Legalization High hopes dashed

freebeacon ^ | SEPTEMBER 6, 2019 | Charles Fain Lehman

[BeauBo]

“Nobody has ever died from it. You’re every bit the hysteric as any other person drunk with the desire to wield power over others.”

Your assertion that nobody every died from it is incorrect.

These two got soup to nuts forensic autopsies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24598271.

Otherwise healthy young men. Note that they were smoking, not injecting. This is from 2014, when modern concentrates were more readily available to smoke.

THC has not been recognized/identified in practice. Death certificates will just indicate heart failure, or embolism or such. The more potent marijuana and the extremely potent concentrates were generally unavailable in decades past.

The mechanism of action is well understood - increases in heart rate and blood pressure. It has been widely demonstrated to be able to kill in animal testing. With concentrates, we will likely see effects that were less visible than with low potency marijuana. Recent concern about vaping deaths seems focused on cannabis rather than tobacco extracts.

I don’t claim/believe that death from THC is common - but it obviously can occur. The LD50 determines how much is needed to kill half of the test subjects. The amount required to kill just one out of 10,000 will be some amount less - potentially much less. Many factors can combine to make a particular individual more susceptible, at a given point in time.

Those who place blind faith in THC are the ones who are being unrealistic (hysterical perhaps). It is obviously a potent substance, subject to abuse, with a well documented ability to overdose (the existence of lethal dose).

The problem of acute death seems very rare from THC, but some do occur. People die from tylenol as well.

[BeauBo]

"how often do you hear of this? For crying out loud Americans die every day because of some clown who got lit and blew through a stop sign"

I think that acute death from THC is a rare phenomena, unlikely to occur, except when concentrates are used.

With 80 to 100% THC available, it is possible to get enough into your system quick enough to do it. Concentrates are a whole new ball game, as compared to the experiences with low potency marijuana of decades past.

I think it would be prohibitively expensive for most people buying retail, but folks in the business, or otherwise wealthy, might indulge in dangerous dosages, if they are led to believe that it is absolutely harmless at any dosage. It is not.

I think one big mouthful of pure THC oil will put the average person's life at risk.

"in all the years when I was out there drinking and doing drugs no one I ever knew ‘’shot up’’ weed"

But the pure concentrates were not available to try it. Did you ever come across people who would try risky things, like eating pills they could not identify, or injecting solutions made from the contents of drug capsules? Hard core drug users often engage in such reckless experiments - even just buying black market drugs, you can't be sure of what you are getting.

Given the availability of potent concentrates, might there be some segment of the population who would find a way to administer themselves very high doses, either inhaling or injecting?

[grania]

I read an article somewhere that False Memory Syndrome is a real thing, and marijuana users are more vulnerable to it. A stoned nation can be controlled by that (not so) Invisible Hand, planting false memories.

I wonder how much of the "Me Too" movement can be attributed to that. I also wonder if with technology instead of physical books, it's way too easy to rewrite even recent history with false memories.

[grania]

Social engineering doesn't work

Look around you. Social engineering does and IS working. How else would you explain people fighting to give up control of their bodies and minds (with drugs and controlled education) to the feds?

[Magnatron]

“I don’t need you pissin’ in my ear about it. Won’t you let me go to hell the way I want to?”

— Wild Bill Hickok, Deadwood

Seems appropriate...

[BeauBo]

“the lethal human dose of THC is at least as high as, and probably higher than, that observed in the monkey.” That is, 130 mg/kg - more than 4 times as high as your 30 mg/kg.”

Its not my 30 mg/kg, it is from that particular article.

Assuming the LD50 is 130 mg/kg (which actually strikes me as more likely than 30, but I really don’t know, the 30 mg number is more recent), then the LD50 for 150 lb men would be around 9 grams of THC, intravenously. I’d assume that inhaling would require a larger dose (but again, I don’t know).

Those are very large, and very expensive doses, at the retail level. Looks like a one gram vape cartridge of 80% THC oil in the SF Bay area is going for about $60, so we are talking over $500. Maybe only for a special occasion, like after robbing a box full.

But of course, we are looking at the LD50 (one out of two, on average). There is likely a significantly lower dose required to just kill one out of 10,000, or those with weak blood vessels, heart abnormalities or unusual sensitivity.

“It’s also worth noting from the link that “there have been no reported cases of death attributable to cannabis in the world medical literature (Blum, 1984)”

Of course, 1984 was long before such concentrates were widely available - even before today’s more potent marijuana was commonly available.

Given the mechanisms whereby THC overdose kills (increased heart rate and blood pressure), the likely officially reported causes of death would be sudden heart failure, embolism or stroke.

[Mom MD]

popular? yes. proven? I am unaware of any studies showing any benefit of cbd oil

[NobleFree]

The problem of acute death seems very rare from THC, but some do occur. People die from tylenol as well.

And alcohol. What's the conservative conclusion for government policy?

[BeauBo]

“What’s the conservative conclusion for government policy?”

I’m not an expert in it. I personally lean toward legalization (at least reducing marijuana from its current schedule 1 status), but regulatory control to limit extracts.

It is clearly going to hard to define/enforce such restrictions on concentrated extracts, when the product itself is legal. There are good reasons to prefer clean and precise extracts over relatively dirty and variable marijuana. So it is messy.

I guess my real bottom line is that we be clear-eyed and objective about the down side risks, and manage them as more is known. Some degree of risk is inherent in most anything, so judgments must be made, both personally and legally.
There are downsides to just regular marijuana use as well, but I fear that concentrates bring a subset of even more serious risks - including some number of acute deaths and psychosis.

[antidisestablishment]

“It is only a failure if you define success as the complete elimination of drug abuse.“

I define failure as destroying our Constitution and turning our police into thieves. I don’t like marijuana, but I hate those who have usurped our laws even more. Using pot is stupid; but, police states are truly evil.

[Manly Warrior]

No, no narrowing of my parameter.

And yes, while the nation decided to reinstate the lawful use of alcohol, it too is a dangerous ( as evidenced by 10s of thousands fo drunk driving fatalities, mostly innocents) drug. Should it be banded? society has decided no. Regarding MJ shrooms etc, yep, banned by the representatives of every state and signed into law decades if not a century ago. Wanna smoke dope? Go ahead. Actions have consequences and all too often illicit and even legitimate use of drugs that alter ones senses are involved in some way, minor or major, in consequences to third parties. That is why everyone has auto insurance, home insurance etc, so when they fail to do right ( whether intentionally or by negligence) they have coverage to pay the civil tort.

Now, ask me if I think a person should be free to do whatever he pleases as long as there is no describable risk of harm to others? Yeah, pretty much. However and for example- I shoot quite a bit on my own lands. I could just throw a target on a stand and bang away, but the responsible person in me says otherwise- no, build an NRA standard design range, have adequate standoff between my property and my neighbor, shoot at fixed targets from specified firing points and so do primarily when neighbors are at work ( nice to be retired mostly), hold umbrella insurance for my activities in case of some unforeseen risk/damage, post my property with warning signs etc. Now, could one of my bullets even after all these controls, harms someone? Possibly, but not likely.

See, I assessed a risk, determined the controls to reduce probability, designed mitigating features and control my activities with regards to my neighbors as not to be a bothersome “free man”.

Now, show me a risk assessment, control design and mitigating process for the use of MJ. You cannot. You will drive under the influence, possess weapons ( illegally) under the influence, walk talk and breathe with a known mind-altering and affect changing substance in your blood and body tissue. You are out of control, as we say in production management and statistical process control.

I have long held that if garbage like MJ is legalized, and a person under the influence ( include alcohol if you wish) that once the criminal and or civil suits are done and the criminal/negligent determination has been made by due process, that the Judge allow the surviving family to extract similar damage /injury or even death on the perpetrator. Surely that will be fine with the Libertine, err, I mean “libertarian” in you, no?

Let’s all live in a state of war/nature so you can toke on a dooby or whatever ( or drink etc etc) it is called these days.

While the laws of nature amy indeed declare that one has the right to anything , it also declares that that right ends where others rights begin. and that my friend is why MJ is banned along with drinking and driving and shooting recklessly at a mark. Even though there is no intention of harming another. It is the action that is prohibited/restricted by society, not the “right” to it.

[wardaddy]

No medical use....lol...docs were giving marijuana tincture to glaucoma patients in the 80s

That’s just one thing

Anti emetic Properties

And so on

Marijuana smokers tend to emulate the host population of white people which is who folks notice

Stoned black people except Rastafarian don’t get much attention

Hence Freepers in liberal areas think all pot smokers are shiftless liberals

But in the south where I live and I’d wager at 61 over half the people I know out of 100s smoke some ...or edibles

And I don’t hang out with liberals so I’d wager 95% of the pot smokers I know are trumpists

So I lack this visceral hatred for weed so many other Freepers have where smokers where they live are leftist ne’er do wells

[wardaddy]

I’m something of a professional on the business end of marijuana

There is no such thing as 99% THC dab or shatter or butter or live resin or any concentrate smokable pot product

92% is max achievable with CO2 cold process marijuana extract

And to be smoked in a pen it has to be diluted with some non THC pot oil like terpines oil or honeycutt which ain’t cheap

The best THC vape oil producers will take 92% extract and dilute it 25% so it’s eaisr to smoke and deliver to a pen reservoir so the coil can heat it

The cheap stuff is diluted a lot...and it’s cheap but trash and may have formaldehyde which acts like an accelerant in delivery same way it does in cigarettes

If you have a smoking apparatus called a gun or nail or dab pipe you can smoke pure shatter but it’s overkill and not terribly enjoyable

One big hit is about it and you waste product which sells for 70-100 a gram in dispensaries

Think PGA booze ....nobody drinks it straight

Little secret

Most real pot smokers

Still like leaf and a joint when it’s ok to smoke that way

Pens are convenient but not as good

[NobleFree]

show me a risk assessment, control design and mitigating process for the use of MJ. You cannot. You will drive under the influence, possess weapons ( illegally) under the influence,

False; I was under the influence many times in my younger days but never drove nor possessed weapons. Glad I could clear up that misapprehension.

You are out of control

Also false; one can get out of control on MJ or alcohol, or be influenced but controlled - as again I did many times.

You seem to "know" some things about MJ that just aren't so. Your FR profile says "I am teachable" ... I guess we'll soon see whether that's the case.

[NobleFree]

The problem of acute death seems very rare from THC, but some do occur. People die from tylenol as well.

And alcohol. What's the conservative conclusion for government policy?

I’m not an expert in it.

Government is too important to be left to "experts."

I personally lean toward legalization (at least reducing marijuana from its current schedule 1 status), but regulatory control to limit extracts.

See? With no expertise, you got the right answer. :)

[jmacusa]

The war on marijuana is like the drug war itself - a war on civil liberties. Because of it criminals have been prospering, bankers and financiers laundering drug money have been getting rich and because drug dealers don't ask for id it's available to kids. I'm so God damn sick of the Prohibitionists and their hypocritical and self-righteous arguments. And a curious thing has always occurred to me. Tobacco is a far more dangerous and deadly substance to the human body and no one has EVER called for cigarettes to be outlawed, have they?

[MarvinStinson]

“An issue on which her medical credentials have no bearing.”

And what are YOUR “credentials”?

[MarvinStinson]

A stoned citizenry is a compliant citizenry.

[KEVLAR]

Start by substantiating your LD50 number.

Using the much lower number for intravenous dosage is extremely misleading. One might call it an outright lie.

Unless of course you can show the vast numbers of people injecting pure Tetrahydrocannabinol in their veins.

[MarvinStinson]

“Weed has medicinal uses to it”

So claims Soros.