Shroud of Turin: New Test Concludes 1988 ‘Medieval Hoax’ Dating Was a Fraud

Sounds like you’re a lot closer than you think you are - but “the struggle is real”. /hat-tip

The techniques that blended layers of steel with different content was never lost, and that plus the etching gave a tough blade with the beautiful esthetic of the Damascene pattern, but the vanadium provided the hardness to keep an edge and the extra toughness to keep the blade from snapping in the stresses of battle.

Lots of Damascus type blades are being made today out of various pig iron, mixing carbon at smelting, no vanadium. . . They get the same results as the old Damascus Blades. It’s just a careful mixing of types of steel in the forging that results in a good strong blade. The old Damascus blades still had edge problems. The etching had nothing to do with the toughness, although the quenching after heat-treatment would harden the blade. Another probable myth was they were quenched in human slaves. . . The so-called slave swords.

The damascene technique was purely from the forge folding and hammer welding.

Indeed, I struggle nearly daily. I describe my state as a spiritual analog to to a medical condition called blind sight, where one has no consciousness of visual perception, but can navigate an unfamiliar cluttered room without bumping into anything or tripping. They act like they can see, but don’t.

Thanks.

Just FYI, my source was The Mystery of Damascus Blades, by John D. Verhoeven, Scientific American

I’m not sure I buy that the Voynich has been ‘translated’. Even the article you point to doesn’t claim that. And I don’t believe it’s been ‘cracked’; nor that it’s a ‘health guide’ for women.

Interesting points. Will have to follow that up. That "health guide" business DOES sound dodgy.

You will gleefully pounce on any article on this topic that confirms YOUR bias, whether it has any basis in reality, ignoring the actual science involved, so long as the main stream media publishes it.

My bias is that it is not a supernatural relic. When the Shroud news first broke, I thought "Gee, wouldn't it be great if . . ."

That turned out to be a big "IF" as the more I read about it, including scientists with an agenda skewing the readings, it became evident this relic carried so much religious baggage that it would never be even-handedly inspected.

One of these days, someone, somewhere is going to be able to reproduce the effects and all the Shroudies will assume the fetal position.

I will be elated if it is conclusively proven to be real. "Conclusively" is the operative word.

That turned out to be a big "IF" as the more I read about it, including scientists with an agenda skewing the readings, it became evident this relic carried so much religious baggage that it would never be even-handedly inspected.

You haven’t shown any scientists skewing any readings. You’ve posted claims of NON-scientist, know-nothings challenging real peer-reviewed science from their non-investigation ignorance. I’ve shot them down, showing their backgrounds and lack of education to even be in the same room with the people they attack, yet you continue to post their twaddling assertions they have made without any facts to back them up. Now you besmirch the real scientists by claiming they have SKEWED their findings, findings that were peer-reviewed and checked by other non-involved scientists. YOU IGNORE that many of these scientists are JEWS, non-Christians, Atheists, themselves. . . But you ASSUME they have an agenda.

Raymond Rogers, the chemist who found the original C14 test was absolutely invalid due to it dating a PATCH did his test with the intent to prove the hypothesis false. To his surprise, he could not prove it false but instead proved the hypothesis to be true, when he found the surviving sample C, to be composed of TWO DIFFERENT MATERIALS, one side original Flaxen Linen, and the other side, French Cotton, of two different ages. That is no longer in dispute. It has been confirmed by multiple other scientists. . . But the skeptics STILL ignore it. THEY don’t like real science, just as YOU don’t like real science and claim the real scientists have some “agenda” other than finding the facts.

YOU want it to be what YOU want it to be, not what it is.

The following link to an old issue of the NSA's Cryptolog has an interesting article (pp 10-11 of the original document, 12-13 of the PDF).

I suppose that the theory expressed will throw a wet blanket on all of those smart guys who have been obsessed for years - perhaps decades - with trying to crack it; but it's as good a theory as any we've come up with since. I don't follow this much, but it hasn't seemed that any of the 'booms' we've heard about this every couple of years have ever panned-out.

(I don't think the author/artist was necessarily illiterate or 'barmy'; and I think they must have had some exposure to alchemical texts and illustrations.)

https://www.nsa.gov/Portals/70/documents/news-features/declassified-documents/cryptologs/cryptolog_12.pdf

My bias is that it is not a supernatural relic. When the Shroud news first broke, I thought "Gee, wouldn't it be great if . . ."

So you were around in 944AD when Archdeacon Gregory gave his sermon in The Hagia Sophia in Constantinople describing the shroud? Or perhaps you were alive in 1352 when Sir Geoffrey de Charney built his chapel in Lirey, France, to put the Shroud on display for the world to know about? Or was in 1898 when Secondo Pia took the first photograph and saw the negative plate that turned out to be an actual positive image? How about in 1932 when Pierre Enri made better photographs and they were published worldwide? Or perhaps it was in 1978 when an interdisciplinary team of scientists were permitted to have unprecedented access to the Shroud for 24 hour a day for 120 hours then published their findings in 1981, again making worldwide headlines about what it was NOT? Perhaps it was when the scientists at the Oxford lab gleefully announced the results of the C14 tests as being 1350 AD to the world. We you there being gleeful, too? Those are all times when the Shroud news could have been considered to have “first broke.” Again, you show your abysmal ignorance of the history of the Shroud with your “first broke” comment.

It is glaringly obvious the “reading” you have done about the Shroud only comes from those already prejudiced toward it not being authentic, those who lie about the motives of the researchers, those who call them pseudo scientists, those who are themselves not scientists, and therefore exceedingly incompetent to make such judgements. YOU prefer the unqualified opinions of English majors, failed magicians, and ex-carnival barkers to the results of research by qualified, peer-reviewed scientists working in their fields of expertise. THAT says a lot about your judgement.

Not a single one of those scientists have ever said that the Shroud is ever going to be proved to be the Shroud of Jesus Christ. In fact, they have to a man and woman, stated categorically, that science cannot prove that the Shroud of Turin is the grave cloth of Jesus Christ.

You’ve made it apparent you do not even understand how science works. . . You don’t, do you?

Science can only prove it is NOT the Shroud of Jesus Christ. . . so these scientists studying the Shroud of Turin have been working to FALSIFY that hypothesis, looking diligently for evidence that it is NOT the Shroud of Jesus, not for proof that it is, because they cannot prove that it is.

Seeing as how you’ve also made it apparent you’ve never bothered to read anything factual I’ve written in these posts, as you keep posting non-factual repetitions of the nonsense spouted by the skeptical idiots such as Nickell, Schaeffersman, and Randi, I doubt you’ve read this far in this post to read this factual statement either.

The better question is, what happens if *man* “proves” it’s real? False prophets, false idols, like I said at the beginning, and very dangerous for the people in this thread who’ve proven they fall into this category.

I have never seen anyone on any Shroud thread whose faith is based on anything about the Shroud being real of not. That is a construct of the skeptics who perpetually invade the threads to throw brickbats at believers in Christ, especially Catholics, not the Shroud, or at those who clothe themselves in the pride of the superiority of their own faith’s purity, a sin in and of itself. For those, I think their Holier-than-thou attitude is being noted where it counts in the “Judge Not, lest ye be judged” category.

I can safely say to the negative responses I’ve received in this thread that “thou dost protest too much”, with a good helping of “how’s your faith these days”. But you keep preaching, brother.

Just wow.

Give it a rest.

I have been looking into any info of the Shroud and have yet to be convinced it is supernatural.

I have also wasted my time arguing with commbative and oh-so-sure Shroudies that I have come to view them in the same vein as liberals and climate enablers, and have no desire to continue wasting my time, with them, or any who self-identify as “swords makers”.

Respond to this as you wish - it is just white noise.

I have been looking into any info of the Shroud and have yet to be convinced it is supernatural.

I’m not trying to convince your ignorant, closed mind it’s supernatural. I’ve not said one word that implied that, asshat. I’ve been trying to get you to pay attention to real science and not listen to other ignorant dunderheads who ARE NOT SCIENTISTS, who have never spent a moment doing an iota of legitimate investigation of the actual Shroud, whose only talent is their ability to throw brickbats and obfuscate real investigators results by throwing slurs, smoke, mirrors, and mud trying to see what might stick to the walls of other people who can’t grasp the difference between what they do and factual results from peer-reviewed science. That’s you.

As I said, I sincerely doubted you bother reading any of the facts I posted; you merely dismiss them out of hand, because those facts deny your "experts", Randi, Schafersman, and Nickell liturgy.

A closed mind is a terrible thing to see wasted. Remember, ignorance is curable, stupidity is forever.