Posted on 05/03/2019 1:14:50 AM PDT by vannrox
The SHTF gun means many things to many people. Having actually taken incoming fire and proven I cannot stop a bullet, I have a different idea than the casually interested. Planning for an apocalyptic nightmare seems a popular pastime—especially for cinematic writers. Just the same there are times when the need may be real.
Perhaps the Remington 870DM should be at the top of the list in SHTF shotguns.
Man’s propensity for savagery, slavery, and mayhem has little diminished since Neolithic times. Geopolitical woes, revolution, disease, and natural disaster are real concerns. I am not one looking forward to such a trial and I think none that are right minded are. Each of these world wide disasters have been an excuse for the scum of a country to loot rape and burn.
The pillagers still exist. Caesars men and the barbarians did so. None did so on the Nazi scale though. There were looters and rapists during the power outage in New York City in 1968. Read about it sometime and you will not be content to live in a home without a firearm. The question is which firearm, and how many, are enough.
The first and most important step is to have a gun. And let’s not allow the liberals to disarm us while they are taking a political bend. As I mentioned to one of my liberal friends, while he was ranting something about Putin and the Ukraine, where in the hell were you liberals the last 100 years when the Brits were putting the heel to Ireland? He was aghast.
Perhaps the Del Ton DT .308 is a good answer to the problem.
The Brits and their social order and restrictions on freedom are his idols I suppose. If a political upheaval comes, and I hope it does not, no one will help us. The French marquis fought bravely against the Nazis because there was hope. The Americans were coming. Our oldest ally had hope. Who will help us? No one. No one will and no one could.
Ill conceived ideas lead to a downfall. Some have bright and fluffy ideas that do not wash. Anyone who thinks they know how the Lord thinks, as an example, is pretty arrogant. No one has Him figured out. I once mentioned to one of my friends that God would not let Israel fall. Scott laughed and referred me back to the scripture. How often has He allowed my people to serve in slavery over the past few thousand years? We still fight.
So, forget the misconception of any overlaying protection America has. When our enemy looks at America and calls us the Great Satan, well, look at Hollywood and Washington. They enemy may have a leg to stand on! As my good Jewish friend pointed out, protection is individual not national. The individual is concerned with personal safety, the government, national security. Let’s keep that straight. Individual safety is another thing.
Fiocchi’s Canned Heat ammo is a great choice for long-term storage.
Forget the police. They will be as scared as you are. This varies from agency to agency, the training they have, and how they feel about the community. Officers recruited from the community have ties. Others do not. New York City cops raced toward the Twin Towers. Cops in the recent Florida school shooting hid.
The National Guard will be invaluable. As a National Guard general in New Orleans commented shortly after hurricane Katrina, I have never seen so many people, so scared of large groups of poor people. (He was commenting on heavily armed officers patrolling in armored vehicles. The Guard and church groups fed millions of people.) The Red Cross and FEMA will be your hope in such a situation.
As for New Orleans, when society takes a hit, old scores are sometimes settled. Lets hope you have been even handed in dealing with your brothers and sisters. You may need more help than I can give. Hopefully the situation will be similar to other natural disasters and short lived. You may have a governor like Kathleen Blanco of Louisiana that cried and asked for Federal help. She seemed inept and unable to make a decision. Or, you may have Governor Nikki Haley of South Carolina in a command post reading after-action intelligence from the guard a few minutes after it was written and directing from the front line.
Each of these actions was largely the finest hour for the National Guard as they saved uncounted lives. The South Carolina Highway Patrol conducted orderly and intelligent evacuations. In Louisiana it was mayhem. I am not knocking New Orleans; I love the Big Easy. However, the contrast is stark.
Beretta’s APX 9mm is a reliable and useful handgun. This is the compact version.
I am a law enforcement veteran without any military experience and I have to call it as I see it. The chief and mayor in New Orleans were despicable corrupt individuals that proved inept. They confiscated guns from honest citizens. Have your firearms hidden and well oiled. Breaking the law? They broke the constitution as subsequent law suits from the Second Amendment Foundation and National Rifle Association proved, but the lawsuits did little to help the person on the spot at that moment.
On another theme, a friend of mine who has enjoyed a long career as an educator is retiring to the North Carolina mountains and a small home. He is ecstatic at the prospect, and I wish him well. He owns perhaps a dozen guns and doesn’t wish to take the gun safe with him. What one gun he asks me? This is a question from a man that isn’t a firearms enthusiast, but instead, a reasonable person who recognized the need to be armed against criminals.
Dopers find their way into the wild as a few recent incidents have shown. A person my age was recently murdered for his truck in NC. The Sheriffs Office not only captured the escaped convict responsible, but arrested several members of his family for accessory to murder as they hid the POS out. It can happen anywhere.
The AK-47 is a viable choice.
Most of us have more firearms that we need. That’s great but you cannot have a half dozen just in case firearms to lug around. I speak from experience; you cannot be proficient with that many firearms. What can you effectively use? The other guy coming at you is probably about as smart as you and perhaps as well armed. The level of practice makes the difference.
You need a reliable firearm. If a storm comes over the horizon, you may clear the Browning and Fox shotguns out and run because they have monetary value. However, if you are seeing a mob come over the hill, you need that trusty Mossberg 590. The long-term firearm should not be chosen just before the debacle. It should be on hand and something you have mastered to the best of your ability.
Like the survival vehicle, it should probably have a high capacity and the ammo load should be easy to carry. Kind of like the difference between my wife’s Jeep Patriot and the Silverado I drive. Her Patriot exhibits a brilliant 27 MPG average. My Silverado, more like 17—but my two tanks give me much greater range. Think about the logic.
If you are reading this, you probably own several guns. The good news is the fact that you can carry more than one at time. A pistol and a shotgun are not a problem, or a pistol and a rifle. The long gun is the most needed if the situation becomes grim for an extended period. One of my military friends tells me the pistol is good for shooting dogs and little else. Most folks have not mastered the handgun.
These Government Model .45s fill the bill for the author.
While useful for home defense, a good shotgun or rifle is much better suited to area defense. If the adversary has a long gun, you are in deep trouble. Even a service-grade pistol isn’t a match for a good .22 rifle as far as hit probability for the half trained. Compared to the .223, .308 and 12 gauge long guns the 9mm, .38, 10mm and .45 are more alike than they differ.
At close quarters for the unexpected, the pistol is the weapon of opportunity. The rifle is the gunfighter’s choice. You need to look at what you can reasonably carry along with a good supply of ammunition. Being caught in the present moron apocalypse, I don’t think the tools for a Zombie apocalypse are the best. The AR-15 is a great rifle, and we can carry plenty of ammunition. The same goes for the Ruger Mini 14.
Get a good rifle, not a fair rifle. Fair rifles are a dime a dozen at present. As for taking game, well, if you are already a good hunter and have been for some time, your deer rifle is a good choice, whatever it is. If you are not a hunter, and think you will be foraging for large game, you are in for a big let down. They don’t stand there and let you shoot them. You better know how to dress and prepare wild game too.
Overall, a good .22 rifle might be better than a pistol, and you may have to shoot dogs for food. That bad? Yep, its bad. I have heard they are pretty stringy. This end of the world thing isn’t for the age of the wimps.
This Wilson Combat .224 Valkyrie with Leupold scope is first class, but requires a considerable investment to obtain and master.
The rifle and a few hundred rounds of ammunition are a minimum. I think a good quality bolt-action rifle in .308 with a decent scope might be a great life saver. You will be able to hit most folks a lot further out than they have trained to shoot, and you will be able to do so from a secure position. At close range, if you have practiced, you may get quick hits. If your scenario is more rural, consider the .308. I have split the difference and my personal SHTF rifle is a short Springfield M1A. Cannot gainsay that one, it hits hard and what you hit stays down. It will shoot through light cover and take anything on four legs in this continent with the right shot placement.
How about a shotgun? The shotgun is a great problem solver. Nothing hits quite like buckshot at a few feet. If your plan is to hunker down in the bungalow, and take what shots you must as the adversary attempts to break the window frame out, the shotgun is ideal. The problem is sustainability. Shotgun shells weigh a lot. Carrying a few hundred gets ugly.
A shotgun in the base of operations is good. However, if you are wandering, the rifle is the first choice—at least for me. Shotgun slugs change the picture a bit, but the rifle it seems is the best choice. For most of us this means a variation on the AR-15 rifle. The best examples are very reliable. Accuracy potential is also excellent.
The Ruger Mini 14 is a first-class all-around rifle.
The Colt M4 in my safe is fired often and will group 3 shots of Federal 62-grain JSTP into less than an inch at a long 100 yards. I like this. The Aero Precision rifle my son built for me features a SIG Romeo red dot and is more versatile overall and about 90% as accurate. That is good enough for me.
There are those who prefer the AK-47 format. That’s ok, as far as it goes, but there are a lot of cheap AKs made to sell, not serve, and they tie up and tear up as the original Kalashnikov never would. My friend Darrel keep an Arsenal AK handy and that is as good as it gets. If you use an AK, use a good one.
I am not sold on pistol caliber carbines. Most are not as serviceable as a battle rifle. And why a pistol cartridge in a rifle anyway—if you need accuracy and something that hits hard? A lot of graves in the Old West were filled with men killed with pistol caliber carbines, but when the .30-30 was introduced, it was adopted wholesale by professionals.
If you deploy an AK rifle there are very few good service loads. However, this is the Hornady SST, at the top of the list.
The Arizona Rangers wanted more, however, and adopted the Winchester 1895 in .30-40. If you are willing to pay for a Winchester or Browning lever action that’s good, the cheaper lever-action rifles may not always work out for you. In the gun ‘comic’ books you occasionally see a desk jockey recommending a lever-action rifle for survival use. Unless your name is Evil Roy, and you have a wall full of CAS trophies, this is probably not a good idea. No, definitely not.
It is difficult enough to master a self-loader with the proper technique. Stay in shape. If you are overweight and cannot climb and run on par with the assailant you face, then those relying on you are pretty much screwed. Also give thought to load bearing gear. A sturdy sling for every long gun is essential. For the handgun, a good holster, not a $10 rag or plastic trap, is well advised.
I have been short on pistol talk. Whatever you carry daily is fine. A high capacity 9mm pistol filled with good ammunition is the best choice for most shooters. I prefer a Government Model .45, but if I expend my energy in mastering the rifle, perhaps the pistol might not get as much attention. The 9mm is very easy to use well. That is the dark picture we hope isn’t coming. For my friend, narrowing the choice to one or two guns, the future is brighter. Be prepared, study recent history, and prepare accordingly.
It may very well come to that, but I see a time coming wherein patriots may have to once again stand on ‘Lexington Green’. There a reason why the term domestic enemies is in the oath.
The M16 A1 had a propensity to jam when wet, muddy or in a sandy environment. Being a former Vietnam era Marine, I know from personal experience the M16 A1 jammed if someone farted on it. The M4 is generations beyond the old M-16, does not jam as easily and is very reliable. In fact the only jam I ever experienced with my M4 was due to cheap ammo. Which also points to the fact that 5.56 and .224 ammo has come along way since the early days of the M16 A1 and makes a difference in the reliability, accuracy and stopping power of the M4 vs. the M16 A1.
Interesting debate but when I bugged out for the hurricane, I had my short barrel Savage 12 gauge loaded with .00, my M4, .40 S&W and .32 Colt Hammerless. I debated on the hunting rifles and took my Dad's favorite .06. I felt each weapon had a use in different scenarios. The .32 and .06 are a family heirloom I took them for nostalgia and no a$$hat looting my property was getting my Dads guns.
Sadly, all my guns were lost in the storm and my gun safe now sits empty if anyone is asking.
I look at it this way: what if I’m a week into SHTF and my op rod breaks or I have to bolt on foot in the middle of the night and can’t take 2000 rnds of ammo with me?
What gun will be the easiest to find parts and ammo for?
Only one answer: AR-15. If nothing else, you might be able to bribe some cop/NG/US Army guy to get a part and or ammo for you.
ehhhhh, is that "dodge" a bullet. Maybe I am missing out on a new game where you actually TRY to get hit.
After a lot of thought and shooting, a 9mm carbine is my choice.
In the Art of War, the first thing you need to do is avoid it.
If you cannot, then you need to make a decision. Either a [1] Fight, or [2] retreat to a safe area and take the loss.
If you decide to fight, then you need one very good weapon that you are an expert in using under various conditions;
[1] Home defense.
[2] Long distance targeting.
[3] Emergency, close quarters reaction.
[4] Suppression fire.
I argue that this time is likely going to be upon us like it or not. If you are still in the good ol’ USA, and near a blue city, then you had best be prepared. Even Pittsburgh will have Antifa out hunting you and your family.
The article suggest AK, or SKS but it has been my experience that these platforms, while they aren’t very accurate. Heck, I couldn’t hit a barn with them.
I would suggest something that you can aim easily and hit easily. No matter what the caliber or size. Stick to something that you can use. Then if, God forbid, you need to use it. Then use it with maximum lethally.
“I may or may not have in my gun safe. It’s not a safe thing to do, not even on Freerepublic.”
Agreed.
Agreed. FR is watched by the oligarchy. Do not, under any circumstances, give out personal information to others. No matter how friendly they might seem.
There are no secrets on the internet. It may feel anonymous here, but the Man knows who you are and where you live.
But the most realistic scenario for us is to "bug in".
If forced to bugout on foot, the AR and ammo are too heavy and to high a percentage of carry weight, so I'd go w .22 Henry and Sig P320 9mm.
Unfortunately, the days of cheap surplus .30-06 seem to be over. Maybe another country that has retired the Garand will find a few million rounds laying around, but that seems less likely as we move further from World War II and the Cold War.
There is some affordable, Garand-friendly, good-quality 150 grain .30-06 FMJ available from Prvi Partizan. And unlike the surplus stuff, the primer pockets are not crimped, so it is much easier to reload if you are into that sort of thing.
If I had a Garand and a loading bench, and if I was inclined to have some ammo for the above-postulated “SHTF” scenario, I might consider buying a can or 3 of the Prvi Partizan stuff, use it up training, and reload with a proper 150 grain hunting bullet appropriate for light-to-medium-bodied game, with a powder charge to duplicate M2 Ball. The Hornady SST, perhaps. No need to limit oneself to FMJ when the Hague Convention either won’t apply or will be irrelevant.
The same could be done with surplus ammo, just with the added pain of reaming or swaging primer pockets.
Just what I imagine I would do if I had such things and were so inclined.
I’m leaning towards a
9mm carbine and a
Semi automatic Pistol
In the same caliber.
Same Magazine’s and ammo.
Easy Peasy.
***There were looters and rapists during the power outage in New York City in 1968.***
Say what? My recollection is there were no crimes committed in the NE power outage OF 1965, as most couples just stayed home and practiced making babies. No blackout in 1968.
The next outage in 1978, there was massive crime, looting and such. Jimmie Carter said it was because “people were hungry.” Somehow a looter shown carrying a looted couch from a furniture store, on his back shows he must be hungry for some leisure time.
Now, what happened to change the behavior of people between 1965 and 1978.
I do reload and my Garand is a DCM (predecessor of CMP) and fairly accurate
I had bought some excellent surplus danish ammo 10-15 years back which is no longer available. This used berdan primers so the brass was basically useless for reloading. The cans of Greek ammo in clips isn’t as accurate but is boxer primed. I don’t remember if I have to ream the pockets. I have loads of once fired brass mostly commercial. No need to ream. I have a bunch of lake city brass that I use for extreme accuracy and I use a little hand cutter tool to cut the ridge of the pocket.
As a SHTF rifle it is much too heavy for me know to hump around. As a home protection weapon it is good.
I have a 5 lb Plainfield.30 carbine that I would grab if I had to take to the streets. I reload for this too.
IMHO, there’s at least 2-3 different articles in that ambitious but overly long essay.
I want to get one of those new 9mm Ruger PC Carbines.
I've seen online where people use the extended Glock mags and even the 50 round drums in them.
For now, my only 9mm carbine is my good-old Hi Point 995. It's the old, "Planet of the Apes" style and has been a great little gun. Reliable, accurate, and fun as all get out.
Having shot both, the Ruger is much better, better trigger, better magazine choices and it doesn’t slap you in the face every time you fire it.
Savage 99 in .303 Savage
1911 in .38 Super
Winchester Model 12 in 16 gauge
Remington #4 Rolling Block in .32 Rimfire
Because I want whoever finally kills me to spend the rest of their miserable life looking for ammo.
To me it depends on the action.
Garand = BAR > Anything bolt-action.
After that, near the .308. Just before? Just after? Six of one, half-dozen of t’other?
Anyway, point being, any gun better than no gun.
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