Posted on 11/09/2018 6:56:39 AM PST by Paul R.
I am going to throw this out there as an incomplete idea, in the hope that some of our more astute FReepers can put some real thought into it, and make some serious suggestions. I believe that a certain level of "gun violence" is a price we pay for freedom. I also believe that a good deal of that violence associated with drug crime and the like could be addressed and minimized with harsher penalties and a widespread program to both saturate violence prone communities with knowledge of those penalties, demonstrate to members of those communities that cooperation with police WILL remove killers permanently from their midst, and move more aggressively against gangs. I think this sort of approach could literally cut "street" murders in some of these places, like Chicago, in half.
However, this does not address the problem of what are, quite simply in most cases, "crazies" shooting up schools and other places where people gather to work, pray, play, learn, and so on. While the actual numbers of people killed in these incidents are not actually very large, they DO get a great deal of media and "anti-gun" attention. That attention is not entirely unwarranted: It is a lot easier to be very upset about some lunatic murdering sometimes numerous innocent people, especially the young, at a time, than it is when it's gangs and / or drug dealers going at each other.
Now, the troubling thing is that in almost all these mass killing incidents, there are indications before the killer starts murdering people that a loose nut has begun rolling around. Gun control advocates advocate their arguments, failing to realize that their approach will not be very effective, here in the US: There is simply too much "weaponry" in public hands to reduce it's prevalence enough to keep guns out of the hands of evil doers. In addition, many millions of righteous people will NOT peaceably give up their means of defense against all sorts of threats: Confiscation attempts would lead to a hot civil war with deaths dwarfing what is happening now. Essentially the control / confiscation advocates hasten the day TSHTF, and most likely worsen it. People like David Hogg and Nancy Pelosi have NO idea what forces they are messing with.
On "our" side, we often hear that "we" need to lock up the loonies. But who is "we"? Do we want the State to have the power to confiscate weapons from anyone they deem a threat? And how long is it before this sort of power devolves into politically based decisions, rather than true mental health based decisions? Safeguards? Uh, is this like our Constitutional "safeguards" to keep Government small and limited? And do we need to gum up our courts further, with millions of contested cases (because that's where it will likely end up)?
I suggest that perhaps, somehow, the answer is in the "we" I just mentioned. We who support our 2nd Amendment rights are best suited to do the policing. The question, my question, is, how to accomplish this? I think a requirement is that we have to have serious "skin in the game' -- ie., direct financial risk if we judge poorly or irresponsibly. Beyond this is where I fully admit this notion is not "complete". I perceive all sorts of legal hurdles, but I am no legal or even Constitutional "expert". I can even see that perhaps the 2nd Amendment needs to be modified for less room for interpretation or distortion, but I am hardly the person to come up with the language! Maybe with that clarity the freedoms end could be in practice expanded, but perhaps the idea of more responsibility for it's beneficiaries needs to be addressed as well. (Is the old Swiss System defined comprehensively in their Constitution? I have not looked it up.)
What do FReepers suggest?
This is a timely and worthy discussion that needs some thorough thinking....one starting point, the aggrandizing of violence, cruel violence is prevalent on television making many immune to violence and gore....that and poorly educated parents or parent trying to raise their child...in front of television because they haven’t the time to spend with their child. That is one of the problems IMHO.....
I refuse to count the deaths that happen in “gun-free zones” and in cities with heavy gun restrictions as “the price of freedom”. Rather, it is a price of not-freedom.
The price of freedom is at most only the level of crime and murder that happens where people actually have freedom, and that price, though nonzero, is far less than the sensationalist and mendacious media and various gun grabbing politicians would have you believe.
Absolutely... The public school indoctrination and falsehoods need to be put in check. And most importantly propaganda needs to be somehow exposed and held responsible when they lie.
Easy solution: Open carry allowed everywhere. No location restrictions. No gun-free zones of any kind.
Remember, in CA, cannot CCW in an establishment whose primary purpose is to serve alcohol. People in bars are sitting ducks, just like schools
We need to change the narrative from “guns, guns, guns” to making the point that progressive policies is when it all started....that’s what changed. I’m tired of being on the defensive and it’s time we go on the offensive. It’s not that we’re changing the “narrative” we’re simply stating the truth and the point I listed above seem to make that case.
Prison is a far better alternative for some nutbag living under a bridge. So yeah, call them prison or nut houses, but build more of them!
And THAT’s the real underlying problem. If the law-abiding are in a place that prohibits open or concealed carry, that’s a neon sign for any crazy out there that they can kill with impunity until they’re ready to take their own lives.
We’re coming full circle back to the point we were during the 19th century, where everyone walked armed because lawless scum could strike at any time. We’re just not as smart as they were, allowing our communist feminized “betters” tell us when and where we can carry, risking our lives in order to comply.
And I really think these carry prohibition laws were written in the hope and expectation that they would result in mass shootings. And the hope that if there’s enough carnage that there would be a demand for eventual gun confiscation.
So I think the proper response is to double down and demand open carry and concealed carry everywhere. That’s really and truly the only logical and guaranteed fix to the problem. If this had been in effect for the country night club shooter (or pretty much any other shooter), there would’ve been maybe one or two victims, then the scumbag would’ve been taking fire from all directions and snuffed out very quickly.
“...illegal machine shops...”
Please define these.
Anyone with a drill press and a lathe can accomplish some basic (as a minimum) machining. Are hobbyists now criminals?
What the USA needs is more gun laws like California!
Well, lets see...California...
Handgun and rifle registration-Check.
Background checks-Check.
Waiting Periods-Check.
FBI checks-check.
Only California approved hand guns allowed-Check.
Tax on ammo-Check.
Gun free zone-Check.
Ban on large magazines-Check.
Ban on A-s-s-ault rifles- Check!
No private sales between individuals-Check!
What could possibly be next!
Ha! We need to restore driver training too.
I think you have hit one important nail on the head. I was recently visiting a friend’s house and an 8 year old was playing one of those violent video games. I think these games make us numb to the value of life.
Right. The question is how, and who, to do the combat, without creating a whole new set of freedom infringements.
Oooops sorry, I should have included corrupt pols along with the MS-13, drug dealers etc. Add-in Antifa, Panthers and BLM.
Oh, nuts. I just got a call, and parent care calls again - which means I’ll be mostly webless a day or two, perhaps.
Please carry on the discussion, with focus on what we as freedom lovers can do, be responsible for, etc., especially when it comes to, well, psychos like this most recent guy in CA. Best is that he is caught before he ever leaves for that bar, regardless of the means he chooses to deal out death... (Car bomb, gun, suicide bomb, etc.)
Specifics, please. For example: Should gun owners, as some sort of group or organization, themselves determine which of their group should be institutionalized, for example?
Absolutely... I agree, it is time to become as proactive as they are. And I think the first best step would be absolutely outlawing political agendas from EITHER SIDE in public education institutions until these innocent minds are at least in high school. LEAVE THEM ALONE TO BE JUST KIDS and not a political tool.
Politics should be banned just as religion is banned from “public” institutions. Want to indoctrinate your own children? Send them to private schools on your own dime. Public schools should be absolutely politically neutral until these minds are old enough to even comprehend the real issues, choices, and consequences.
This K through 12 indoctrination created this whole national problem during the last two generations. Those kids are now voting with brain dead ignorance. And it will until we put a stop to it. Most districts don’t even have a Parent/teacher association to address these issues anymore... Become proactive and FORM ONE!
Another pie-in-the-sky, feel good democrat shot that blew up in their, and our, faces, and is very much a causal agent of our current problem.
Personal importation of firearms regs is another. Now if you move into Ca you have to turn all your firearms over to a licensed dealer, Pay a handling and storage fee to the dealer for holding them, and then apply for the right and approval from the state to get them back from the dealer if ever, because the state approval paperwork takes so long and is delayed on purpose.
And If they decide not to approve the transaction of your own firearms back to you, you never get them back and there is no compensation. You have to sue them and you WILL lOSE. It’s out of hand and will be coming to your neighborhood soon. The only way to change this trend is to invest every national dollar available into fighting these unconstitutional laws Ca keep passing and get them pushed up to the SCOTUS.
I have never seen or heard of any gun getting up by itself then going out to commit mayhem. It simply doesn’t happen. It’s an inanimate object like a knife or a hammer or a bomb. All of which could be used as weapons by PEOPLE.
The issue is mental health and terrorism committed by PEOPLE.
This recent mass killer could have put chains on the doors and had timed fire bombs go off inside killing hundreds of people. Perhaps that would be preferable to the idiot gun grabbers.
The answer, I think, you’re looking for is to identify those who show a tendency for violent mental health issues and possible terrorist activity. Different groups handle those two possible groups. Law enforcement (FBI) for the terrorists and the medical field for the mental health issues.
Across the board I believe we need to have the police focus on the few felonies that actually harm others and have the prosecutors and judges enforce much, much stiffer penalites.
Good luck getting that through... with regards to drugs we just had 1/3 of the voters say we should REDUCE penalties for drug related crimes in the state of Ohio.
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