Posted on 02/16/2016 11:12:57 PM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
Trump's crafty move on Iraq: His war comments allow conservatives to move past the Bush years while saving face
Most of Saturday night's Republican debate held by CBS in South Carolina was more of the same stuff we've seen in the previous eight debates, with Donald Trump insulting people and lots competitive right-wing posturing. But there was one moment that was unexpected, when Trump went after Jeb Bush by attacking his brother, former President George W. Bush.
Trump accused the former president of lying about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and called the war "a big, fat mistake." Trump also sneered at Jeb Bush that the "World Trade Center came down during your brother's reign." These comments range from demonstrably true (the 9/11 comment) to arguable (there's no proof that Bush knowingly lied, but his administration did heavily massage the evidence to get their preexisting desire to start a war in Iraq). Perhaps unaccustomed to hearing reality-based rhetoric during their debates, the Republican audience booed Trump loudly for this.
But does that booing actually mean that this stance, which Trump has been continuing to push in media interviews, will hurt him in the polls? As Salon's Sean Illing points out, it should hurt him. George W. Bush gets high approval ratings in South Carolina, which is holding its Republican primary on Saturday, and, as a general rule, Republicans don't enjoy admitting that the last president they voted into office was one of the worst presidents in American history.
And yet, as Illing points out, it doesn't seem that this is budging Trump's numbers. "There are no sacred cows left for Trump to slay," he writes.
Heather Digby Parton of Salon agrees, writing, "Trump's appeal all along has been based upon his taking on sacred cows. That he does it to their faces reads as courage."
But I would argue that there's more going on here than just the fact that Trump's supporters are able to rationalize away anything he says, though that is undoubtedly a huge part of this. There's also a possibility that Trump is giving conservatives exactly what they need right now, which is a way to move on past the Iraq War.
As with most things conservatives support, from the Vietnam War to bans on same-sex marriage to support for segregation, there comes a time when a topic stops being "controversial" and instead a consensus forms that the conservative position was wrong. When this happens, conservatives usually have to find a way to reconcile their own positive opinions of themselves with the fact that they were very, very wrong. Usually this requires reframing the issue so they can keep preening self-righteously while quietly moving off the wrong opinion and hoping everyone forgets that they ever held it.
Once it became unacceptable to openly support segregation, for instance, the move was to push for "private property" rights, such as the right to refuse service to black people or to sell your house to them, that just so happened to uphold segregation. With same-sex marriage, the shift has been from openly opposing it to supporting the "right" of individuals to cite Jesus and interfere with the ability of couples to get married smoothly. Once it became undeniable that Vietnam was a losing cause, the right switched off to supporting the myth that POWs had been left behind, in order to retain a sense of righteousness.
But no such reframing has really emerged that allows conservatives both to let go of the Iraq War while maintaining a sense of self-righteousness around the issue. Republican candidates have offered up some distractions - ISIS! Benghazi! Iran has nukes! - but the problem remains: The tribalism of the right allowed them to support a war that was obviously a bad idea, and history will judge them for it. It's embarrassing and there's only so long you can deny the obvious before reality starts to seep in.
Trump offers a way out of this conundrum. No one is a more obnoxious anti-Muslim bigot in the race than he is, and yet here he is, denouncing the war as a bad idea. His stance gives conservatives a way to save face while carefully and oh-so-quietly admitting the war wasn't the best idea.
By repeatedly calling the war a "mistake" and focusing on the Bush administration's choices, Trump might be able to frame the Iraq War not as a failure of conservative ideology, but just one more example of why the Republican establishment is corrupt and needing of an outsider like him to fix it.
After all, Trump validates all the emotional reasons conservatives had for supporting the war - tribal loyalty, fear of terrorism, loathing of Muslims - while simply suggesting that the war was not the way to address these emotional desires. Just as the POW/MIA myth allowed conservatives to retain their hatred of the North Vietnamese while quietly admitting the war was a misfire, Trump has established a narrative for conservatives to admit they made a mistake without admitting what is wrong in their ideology that led to the mistake.
And he offers a way out that allows them to save face. They don't have to take back their vote for George W. Bush. They just need to not vote for his brother. It's a perfect way to let conservatives have it both ways, to reject the legacy of the Bush family without actually admitting that they were wrong to trust the Bushes in the first place.
Trump's move is smart in another way, in that he's subtly signaling that he's not as eager to head to war as the Bush family traditionally is. Talking to conservatives on this front is a delicate operation. The entire conservative movement is best understood as a bully that likes to talk tough and brag about how many fights he's won while actually preferring not to risk getting punched in the face. What they want is a politician who will talk tough and even brag about how tough he is, but they don't necessarily want to actually go to war.
It's not just that actual Americans, often Republican-voting Americans die in war. It's also that going to war means running a strong risk of losing that war, which the Iraq War is a stinging reminder of. It's better to talk a big game and pretend you're a winner, instead of actually trying to prove yourself and failing.
Trump gets this better than anyone. That's why his anti-war talking points are likely to work. He's calling out the Bushes for puncturing the illusion, for taking the fantasy too far by actually made good on all that war talk conservatives love to wallow in. Trump drew a bright line between candidates who understand that war works best when it remains in the realm of the hypothetical and those who are foolish enough to actually send troops in to fight a losing cause. It’s a message that likely resonates with voters and why his posturing on this issue probably won’t hurt him, and may even help.
...Consider Iraq. After each pounding from U.S . warplanes, Iraq has dusted itself off and gone right back to work developing a nuclear arsenal. Six years of tough talk and U.S. fireworks in Baghdad have done little to slow Iraq's crash program to become a nuclear power. They've got missiles capable of flying nine hundred kilometers-more than enough to reach Tel Aviv. They've got enriched uranium. All they need is the material for nuclear fission to complete the job, and, according to the Rumsfeld report, we don't even know for sure if they've laid their hands on that yet. That's what our last aerial assault on Iraq in 1999 was about. Saddam Hussein wouldn't let UN weapons inspectors examine certain sites where that material might be stored. The result when our bombing was over? We still don't know what Iraq is up to or whether it has the material to build nuclear weapons. I'm no warmonger. But the fact is, if we decide a strike against Iraq is necessary, it is madness not to carry the mission to its conclusion. When we don't, we have the worst of all worlds: Iraq remains a threat, and now has more incentive than ever to attack us.
Salon is under my sink for plumbing emergencies, but I didn’t disagree a whole lot with what Trump said.
EXCEPT that Clinton was the reason my beautiful Towers fell (Never Forget!).
the Cole, the Kobe Towers, the 1993 attack and on and on.
he launched a few missiles at where he THOUGHT bin laden was once, but that was it.
Doubt airport surveillance would have caught box cutters.
remember, clinton cut the deficit largely on the backs of the military and being lucky enough to be in office when something called “the internet” became popular
and where the heck is EVERYBODY?
i’m bored stiff at work
wake up!!! :)
Trump was positioning himself for the general election.
We’ve lost two elections to the community organizer - the 2nd after America witnessed the worst presidency since Jimmy Carter - to Democrats because of George W.
George W. bailed out the rich with corporate welfare and got us into Iraq.
ANY Republican nominee will have that baggage going into the general. It weighted down both McCain and Romney.
Trump has inoculated his candidacy of the Bush blunders.
It was a smart strategic move.
Trump isn’t running a a neo-con. Why conservatives now praise the Bushes is beyond me.
He’s running against Clinton/Bush/NAFTA/Iraq and appealing to independents, blue collar workers, the Nixon ‘silent majority’ hard hats that will cross over, those that never voted or haven’t voted in years, and it turns out that 35-40% voter base will show up for him consistently.
When National Review and Fox attack Trump it helps Trump prove he’s independent. When the MSNBC and leftists attack trump it helps Trump prove he’s independent.
He’s staking out ground candidates usually ignore. His support among blacks (25%) scares the heck out of Democrats. He pulls that off in a general, or anywhere close to that, and he will win.
You’re playing chess, these guys are still trying to figure out tic-tac-toe.
I personally believe that Trump made a big mistake with his line of attack in the debate over WMD, but I am only one person. I am sure someone will be along soon to tell me I am a fool for not recognizing such a brilliant strategy for the general election and now he will get the code pink vote or something to that effect.
If he wins the nomination I will vote for him in the general because the alternative is far worse, but then again I almost got zotted here on FR for making the same argument for Romney because anything was better than the present administration to me, but Romney was more evil than Obama according to a few around here.
Trump is not going to change so I guess we should get used to it, but his bombastic style has alienated more than a few people that I know including some who have already said they would never vote for him. That was my fear with his rise at the beginning and all the meat and potatoes bravado won’t make me feel any better the morning after we get another progressive/socialist President because he ticked off enough people.
Will see how it plays out and I am guessing this thread will get nasty due to Salon article. Telling quote from the book though! Keep on posting and ignore the ugliness - they are just ideas after all and most of us come here to partake of them.
bttt
>> As with most things conservatives support, from the Vietnam War to bans on same-sex marriage to support for segregation,
Salon argues that state sanctioned sodomy essentially equates to the ultimate sacrifice — given the things Salon says.
>> Trump is giving conservatives exactly what they need right now, which is a way to move on past the Iraq War.
I don’t need that. And I hope no other conservative “needs” that. Quite honestly, I despise the dismissal and relegation of the Iraq years.
Trump could have inoculated himself in a more reasoned fashion without making it so personal. His performance was over the top - even for Trump.
Outside of the echo chamber that is FR - two of my co-workers (likely GOP voters) said they would not vote for him after the last debate. Both are veterans like me. I did not even attempt to defend him again - they have to make up their own minds. I am sure a few really liked it so maybe he gained as much as he lost - time will tell, but the real test of a great President is to win people over. If you win a few and lose a few you are in the same spot and I can’t help but wonder if he will ever learn the necessary art of politics that each great President has to master.
He is either going to win big or go down in flames with the rest of us screaming in the cheap seats. Not much middle ground with the man.
USA are in a mess because of Clinton Bush Obama ....all musslim lovers and friends , allies of Saudi Arabia ....
Trump is rightfully in a free ride §
Let’s go forward ! “Conservatives” should move their old ass and “brains” ....
GO TRUMP
Pot kettle black
When a Freeper is reading and posting ‘Salon’ you need to wonder why.
I read (and post) articles from ALL outlets - as with Salon, it’s a good way to see what the Left likes, dislikes, lies about, etc.
So what do you think about their assessment of Donald Trump and his debate performance?
I personally believe that Trump made a big mistake with his line of attack in the debate over WMD, but I am only one person.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Agreed, BUT he did wait till W threw his hat in Jebs ring - DT basically STFU when Mrs Bush jumped in.
While I agree that he responded when he sensed the attack from the Bush clan, he still could have been far more artful about it and said the same thing.
It is also difficult to swallow the excerpt above from his book. Another in a long line of “flip flops” if he was a candidate by another name.
“I read (and post) articles from ALL outlets - as with Salon, it’s a good way to see what the Left likes, dislikes, lies about, etc.”
They lie abaout everything. They hate everything. they wil not be happy until they have their own Caliphate.
History’s most obscene hypocrites write: “conservatives usually have to find a way to reconcile their own positive opinions of themselves with the fact that they were very, very wrong. Usually this requires reframing the issue so they can keep preening self-righteously while quietly moving off the wrong opinion and hoping everyone forgets that they ever held it.” They know all about reconciling their highly exalted opinions of themselves (we are good! we are the best! we are superior thinkers!) with the reality of their evil consciences, evil thoughts, stupidity, and depraved actions. Equally, they know all about the need of reconciling their evil ideology with forgetfulness in order that they need not think about the genocide of millions, catastrophic destruction, and other crimes committed against humanity on its’ behalf. In this light, obscene hypocrisy is a gross understatement.
What they’re teaching in universities is, that the U.S. is evil and that conservatism is the cause of that evil.
Salon is a beacon of Leftist thought - w/ hate for religious liberty and the 2nd amendment.
TRUMP [on the Larry King Show (April 15, 2009), referring to the then newly elected communist president (Obama)]: "Well, I really like him. I think that he's working very hard. He's trying to rebuild our reputation throughout the world. I mean, we really have lost a lot of reputation in the world. The previous administration [GW Bush] was a total disaster, a total catastrophe."
CNN LARRY KING LIVE Interview with Donald Trump
April 15, 2009
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0904/15/lkl.01.html
_________________________________________________________
The President's Apology Tour
Great leaders aren't defined by consensus.
By Karl Rove
April 23, 2009
President Barack Obama has finished the second leg of his international confession tour. In less than 100 days, he has apologized on three continents for what he views as the sins of America and his predecessors. ..."
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB124044156269345357
_________________________________________________________
"Well, I really like him. I think that he's working very hard. He's trying to rebuild our reputation throughout the world."--Trump, April 15, 2009
Thanks. That’s the same interview where Trump says nationalizing the banks is okay.
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