Cliven Bundy II? Utah protesters prepare for new face-off with feds

This eye-blink of a town in the state’s scenic southeastern corner bills itself as the “Gateway to Adventure.” But this weekend it promises to be more like a launchpad for civil unrest.

A band of angry citizens plans to ride all-terrain vehicles onto closed-off, federally managed public land Saturday in protest against the federal Bureau of Land Management, which many say has unfairly closed off a prized area, cheating residents of outdoor recreation.

The ride, organized by San Juan County Commissioner Phil Lyman, is a gambit to assert county sovereignty over Recapture Canyon, known for its archaeological ruins, that BLM officials say has been jeopardized from overuse. The canyon was closed to motor vehicles in 2007, the agency said, after two men forged an illegal seven-mile trail. Hikers and those on horseback are still allowed there.

Lyman and his supporters want the BLM to act more quickly on a years-old request for a public right-of-way through the area. “You can’t just arbitrarily shut down a road in San Juan County,” he said. “If you can do that and get away with it, what else can you do?”

The revolt has received national attention, coming at the heels of Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy’s successful standoff last month against the BLM that suggests a rising battle across the West over states’ rights on federally managed public lands...

I don't know what you are talking about with Navahos and bag limits.

You ask what part of the west? The west is those lands between the 98th meridian and the Cascades/Sierra Nevada. The 98th meridian is the eastern wet/dry line: To the east is wet and to the west is dry. The Cascades/Sierra Nevada is the western wet/dry line: To the west is wet and to the east is dry.

These lands are called the Great Plains but in the past were often called the Great American Desert. Its the western plains, the intermountain west, and the "islands of trees", which is those lands above a certain elevation that receives rain/snow because the height of the Rockies squeezes(condenses) the last bit of moisture from the air.

The western plains are anchored on the south by the Chihuahuan desert and the intermountain west is anchored by the Sonoran desert.

So we really define the west by geography and rainfall/evaporation rate. The difference between the evaporation rate in San Antonio and Williston is equal to 15 inches of rain.

There's lots of history books that deal with history of the west broadly and narrowly and are organized around dates and events.

But there is the book "The Great Plains" written by the Texas historian Walter Prescott Webb. Published in 1931, it is still considered to be the bible on settling the west and is still in publication because many western colleges and universities use it as a textbook.

It doesn't deal with dates and events. Its a characterization of the west and how man had to change to occupy the lands. It covers geology, geography, flora as in long, short, and bunch grass prairies plus the brush lands. Fauna as in buffalo, prairie dogs, etc. It discusses water and range law. Also the invention of the Colt revolver, variable pitch windmill, and barb wire and how settlement couldn't proceed without these. The book does cover the dam building in the west that occurred prior to publication in'31 but many, many more were built later. Even though the Ogalala aquifer was known at the time, the impact of that aquifer on farming and ranching would not happen until after '31. The book doesn't cover Reserved water rights because in '31 that wasn't controversial. It was only after the courts began re-interpreting that law later in the century that it did affect the west.

It also thoroughly discusses the successes and failures of the methods which Congress used to disperse the public lands in the west. These policies worked well to the east in the wet zone or wetter zones, such as the northwest territories to the west and north of the Ohio river.

Congress obviously had an aversion to turning over large tracts of land in the west to individuals the way Texas, Spain, and Mexico did. Maybe this was egalitarianism or perhaps Congress, which was composed of those from the north and south, was intent on limiting the political and economic power of the west after the west became states in the union.

That's all history and you can't change history.

You should read this book. You can buy it new for $23 at Amazon and used copies are a few bucks. I bought mine used 20 years ago at the Half Price Book Store in Arlington.

Another book you should read is Cadillac Desert because it covers the history and future of water in the west.

Well, you look at geographic interfaces, while I look at cardinal directions as points on a compass, west being one direction and not a condition of moisture content/retention or quantity over a period of time...

Got to go back and look closer, I could have sworn you made mention of the Navaho, and bag limits on ATV’ers, muh bad...It was up in one of the earlier posts on this thread...It was late/early this morning and I was a bit bleary eyed from a bit of insomnia...

I minored in History, and did more to enhance my interests in engineering with a heavy physics load...So I feel my outlook is based more upon the mechanics of an issue with a flair for Louis L’Amour in my presentation...

You seem to be more of an absolute-ionist in your accounts...I’ve seen it before (in the past that I can recall here in FR), but kept my peace, to see a better picture of your approach to additional debate...

Just take my words as constructive criticism until I see more data...

The whole premise of these issues we are having with the FEds (land ownership, property rights etc etc etc) is not about anything more than a federal shakedown from a cash strapped government run amok...You know this...

just as it could be argued that personal property ownership is a temporary stewardship from a certain point of view, the same could be said about the government and its desire to “control” as much tangible property and personal liberties it can, for as long as it can get away with...

I always caution people who comment here to be very careful about what they post in a publically accessible forum as this...We are ALWAYS under scrutiny and we are not as anonymous as one would think you are...Even in the backroom messaging system on this website...

No one has a hole card anymore...

And trying to bait people into writing something they shouldn’t is not debate, it is inflammatory, borderline inciting premeditation to do drastic things detrimental to all of us who value free speech, not to condone illegal acts...

We are a lot smarter than that...Guidance, restraint, know where it really is that you can effect change, and course corrections is wiser, creates lasting relationships whether you agree or disagree with someone...

Just my opinion...

It does lead to quandaries.

If the west is defined as being east of the Cascades/Sierra Nevada and dry, then Seattle, Portland, and San Francisco are not part of the west, but Los Angelus and San Diego are.

But of course they are part of the west.

So there is another criteria. Where did mankind have to change to live.

As settlement moved west it reached the 98th meridian wet/dry line and stopped, then jumped to the west coast wet zone, where there was adequate rainfall such that they could just like they did back east.

The exceptions were the Mormons who wanted to locate away from any and everybody, as well as those who weren't actually settlers but were seeking gold and silver.

Sure there were wet places along rivers and streams in the west that could be settled but that was a very small area compared to the vast west

After the windmill came along, the dry west could be settled because the windmill gave them enough water to drink, grow a garden and shade trees, water a milk cow, a pig, and some chickens. Plus take a bath on Sat night. But they still had to depend on dry land farming to raise a crop.

Barb wire allowed them to fence out the open range so that a drovers cattle herd could not destroy/eat property and crop.

You can see this in the water rights doctrines. The east uses Riparian water rights that originated in Europe. But in the west Riparian water rights didn't work, so Prior Appropriation water rights were developed. The states that straddle the 98th meridian(TX, OK, KS, etc) use the dual doctrine of Riparian and Prior Appropriation. Like wise with CA, OR, and WA because they straddle the Cascades/Sierra Nevada. But NM, AZ, CO, UT, NV, etc use Prior Appropriation.

Even though adjustments were made and tool came along, there was still the problem of acquiring land in the west. Congress was willing to sell cheaply or give away to homesteaders small tracts of land but they would not do that with large tracts. And many of these lands were suitable only for grazing.

So settlers would locate on these small tracts and graze their livestock out on these federal lands for free. But eventually Congress established the system of grazing leases that are still in use today, which is almost free or very cheap at $1.35 per month per grazing unit.

And as time went by Congress made more changes such as more regulations, more set asides, and multiple use which means there are fewer grazing leases available for lease and there are more regulations on those leases.

Which means fewer head of livestock being grazed.

You can identify the significant changes as the Taylor Grazing Act 1936 and the Federal Lands and Policy Management Act 1976. Also NEPA, Endangered Species Act, Wild Horse and Burro Act, Clean Water Act, and others.

The building of Lake Mead no doubt benefitted farmers by giving them water for irrigation, but it reduced land available to the grazers. Cliven Bundy was in conflict with the BLM over the Bunkerville grazing lease for quite awhile(since 1992), but when he moved his livestock onto the Lake Mead wildlife management area in 2012, that set in motion the wheels that would lead to the 2014 standoff.

You can say the same thing about coal. Today they mine 10-15 times more coal on these western federal lands than they did 40 years ago, which means land previously used for grazing is now used for coal production. We have to use this coal because of the Clean Air Act.

All these federal lands in the west are multi-use and all the different groups using these lands want to not just keep their share, they all want more.

The grazers want more land. The people that love wild horses want these wild horses to have more. ATV riding is a popular and growing sport so they want more land/trails. Campers and hikers want more. Everybody wants more.

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