Posted on 07/15/2012 4:35:34 PM PDT by WilliamIII
IN 1998, John Shelby Spong, then the reliably controversial Episcopal bishop of Newark, published a book entitled “Why Christianity Must Change or Die.” Spong was a uniquely radical figure — during his career, he dismissed almost every element of traditional Christian faith as so much superstition — but most recent leaders of the Episcopal Church have shared his premise. Thus their church has spent the last several decades changing and then changing some more, from a sedate pillar of the WASP establishment into one of the most self-consciously progressive Christian bodies in the United States. Go to Columnist Page » Ross Douthat’s Evaluations
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Times Topic: Episcopal Church
Josh Haner/The New York Times Ross Douthat Readers’ Comments Readers shared their thoughts on this article. Read All Comments (323) » As a result, today the Episcopal Church looks roughly how Roman Catholicism would look if Pope Benedict XVI suddenly adopted every reform ever urged on the Vatican by liberal pundits and theologians. It still has priests and bishops, altars and stained-glass windows. But it is flexible to the point of indifference on dogma, friendly to sexual liberation in almost every form, willing to blend Christianity with other faiths, and eager to downplay theology entirely in favor of secular political causes.
Yet instead of attracting a younger, more open-minded demographic with these changes, the Episcopal Church’s dying has proceeded apace.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
Yes! I have been preaching that sermon for a decade, at least. When I say liberal Christianity is an oxymoron most people look at me with confusion. Sigh.
Amen, sister! That is SO true. Thank you.
Gaining acceptance from mainline denominations is only an excuse goal of the homo agenda. The main goal is to neutralize and render ineffective the denomination which they succeed in dragging down to their level.
Wow. There are a lot of ridiculous comments here about liberals not being Christians. It is apparent that most on this forum haven’t a clue about what makes a person a Christian. Do you all think keeping so-called “conservative” principles will get anyone to Heaven? Do you think modern conservatism is the easy substitute for trying to be saved by keeping the Law of Moses (which no one has ever been able to keep)?
This thread is as bad as when liberals try to describe their version of Jesus. It is obvious some here would try to make Jesus a Republican as if He is supposed to learn from us how things ought to be run.
I’m very disappointed at the ignorance here.
People are not born again by becoming affiliated with a political ideology. They get saved by hearing and believing the gospel.
Many truly born-again believers have no political affiliation. Many do not understand politics. Many vote democratic because they do not understand what they are voting for.
There are plenty of so-called conservatives on this forum going headlong to eternal damnation in the lake of fire. And there are a lot of believers in Jesus Christ who will make it into Heaven in spite of being deceived by politicians and news reporters.
Do you think Rush and Hannity and Savage are headed for the pearly gates because they espouse conservative views. I’ve got news for you. I’ve listened to these and other conservatives for years and never heard one give a testimony of how they were lost in sin and found salvation by God’s grace. Politics, even conservative politics, will not get anyone to Heaven any more than supposed liberal charity will.
Don’t act like fools. Don’t be modern Pharisees. By your words you will be justified and by them you will be condemned.
Why bother? The ELCA, PCUSA and the other looney left denominations are going into the Crapper where they belong. Meanwhile, the other Denominations that have maintained their Scriptural integrity are doing quite well. The PCA has had phenominal groth over the past several years.
Where do you go to church? What does your Denomination teach? If they are teaching Homo progressive theology, you are not in a church. You are in a Sunday feel good meeting that is held at a scheduled time every week.
>> I’m very disappointed at the ignorance here.
You’re not comprehending the issue.
You support the killing of nascent life? That’s a fundamental tenet of so-called Liberal Christianity.
You support the states’ redefinition of marriage; a direct assault against Christianity? Another fundamental tenet of Liberal Christianity.
Liberal Christianity is the form, not the person.
No political view will “get anyone to Heaven”.
However, there is a very serious difficulty with attempting to hold modern liberalism and Christianity: modern liberalism is one of that genus of ideology that essentially denies the Fall and fancies that man is perfectible in this world by worldly measures. In liberalism’s world there is no need of grace, just proper social engineering, social engineering that inevitably rejects the wisdom of ages found in the moral teachings of the Torah, the words of Our Lord, the letters of the Holy Apostle Paul, and the writings of the Church Fathers. To be a modern liberal and a Christian requires a sort of double-mindedness that Our Lord and His Apostles very much rejected.
Certainly some tendencies on the American right — for example, the atomism of Randian libertarianism or the extension of proper contempt for state-run social programs into contempt for the poor — are as anti-Christian as anything found on the left. But the core tradition of not just American, but Anglo-American conservatism (from Burke to Lord Acton to Russell Kirk and William F. Buckley, Jr.) is self-consciously Christian and holds views of society and human nature, which even when worldly-colored are far closer to those found in the Scriptures and tradition of the Church than is “liberalism”.
To give credit due, I believe that’s a direct quote from the Apostle Paul in perhaps one of the Corinthian epistles, but I can’t specifically remember which.
I tend to agree, although I like to give anyone who says he is a Christian the benefit of the doubt. After all, it is God who judges in the end.
On the other hand, I can have an opinion, and it pretty much matches your own.
“Do you think Rush and Hannity and Savage are headed for the pearly gates because they espouse conservative views. I’ve got news for you. I’ve listened to these and other conservatives for years and never heard one give a testimony of how they were lost in sin and found salvation by God’s grace. Politics, even conservative politics, will not get anyone to Heaven any more than supposed liberal charity will.”
_________
Heard someone say the other day, “you’ll never hear Rush start a sentence with, ‘I was sitting in church last Sunday, when the pastor said....’”. Lots of golf and vacations on Sunday, but I’ve never heard him discuss faith. Just because there are people who Christians agree with, doesn’t make those people saved Christians...but it’s not too late.
That would be a “no”, Bob...
“liberal” Christians’ belief is summarized as:
“I believe Jesus is my Savior, but there are many other ways to salvation.”
A self-contradicting statement. There is no reason for Jesus and the Cross if man can save himself.
“Liberalism” is simply the political expression of the religion of Humanism, which began with the lie “you will be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
It will continue to be an influence in this world until its author is banished to the pit forever.
Anybody who thinks this is just some right-wing nuts calling left-wing Christians unchristian just because they don’t vote conservative Republican…normally, I’d consider telling people to read John Spong’s stuff cruel and unusual punishment, but you really need to. We’re not talking about a guy who professes more or less orthodox Christianity and just lives it out by voting Democrat. Politics aside, we’re basically talking about a high-church atheist. And he’s as representative as any of the current leadership. The Episcopal Church of today is pretty much exactly what Spong said it needed to become to attract members in today’s world, and it’s bleeding to death. That’s not right-wing rhetoric, that’s simple observable fact.
I have always saved Elliot’s analysis on my home page:
“The world is trying the experiment of attempting to form a civilized but non-Christian mentality. The experiment will fail; but we must be very patient in awaiting its collapse; meanwhile redeeming the time; so that the Faith may be preserved alive through the dark ages before us; to renew and rebuild civilization, and to save the world from suicide.”
T.S. Eliot, Christianity and Culture
I’m listening to a book called “Occult America.” It is not what I expected, but it actually explains a lot about “Liberal Christianity.”
First and foremost, it is anything but Christian. Mostly, it is a combination of “Spiritualism,” “New Thought” and Socialism. The Christianity part is just a very thin candy shell.
Another funny thing - a lot of this cr@p started in the North East, especially the western and central part of New York state, aka the “Burned Over District” or “Psychic Highway” (between Rochester and Syracuse) so it is mostly a Yankee thing.
Well, it is this thing about “Thou shalt not steal.”
Since most of Liberal Ideology is based on coercion and theft, any church supporting this has wandered a awful long way from the flock.
They have also departed from the Bible in their support of homosexuality. They have gone from loving the sinner and hating the sin, to loving the sin, too.
But if conservative Christianity has often been compromised, liberal Christianity has simply collapsed. Practically every denomination — Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian — that has tried to adapt itself to contemporary liberal values has seen an Episcopal-style plunge in church attendance.
Policitally, I am libertarian / anarchist, but I almost always end up voting Republican beause that is almost always closer to what I believe than what the other major party espouses.
I am 60 years old, have been voting since I was 18 and have NEVER voted for a Democrat.
I actually once voted for a Green Party candidate for State Treasurer because the Republicans did not put forth a candidate and the Democrat was a convicted felon
For this election cycle, I find myself in a sparsely-populated State with very few electoral votes, so I'm voting for Gary Johnson.
Regards,
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