I Dare

This may be the post that gets me zotted, and if so, so be it, but it would be a nice sign of respect for free speech, and just plain old maturity if that doesn’t happen. I won’t lose sleep either way though.

All through the Clinton years FR played a key role in helping me really come to appreciate the wisdom of the founding fathers as Clinton violated their principles in so many ways. I found here a large community of wise, informed posters from a diverse background that added depth and clarity to the news of the day. It was here on FR that I found out about the WTC attack. Being Canadian, the second amendment always seemed kind of silly to me, but through FR I learned how wrong that view was and now wish my country had such a right for it’s citizens.

That was then, now more and more it has felt like FR has dwindled into an insular, nearly feral, group of political and religious thought police whose mission is to ferret out anybody who doesn’t fit their orthodoxy and get rid of them, while propagandizing against anything the disagree with. At times it feels more energy is spent attacking those who should be seen as allies rather than the true enemies. I used to spend a fair bit of time here each day, now perhaps a quick look once every few weeks because of this change in climate. I know many have left because of it, many have already posted their concerns about it, and their wise observations and suggestions have fallen on deaf ears.

I do feel I have a small measure of responsibility for the change (but no guilt). When FR started to fail to live up to it’s own rules about not bashing religions (when it came to my religion) we Mormon posters decided that instead of being party to the creation of long threads filled with contention that made it hard for the moderators see the difference in our behavior and theirs, we decided instead to simply post articles putting forward our position and leave the critics to show their true colors. (see http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2013341/posts). Not only did the anti-Mormon posters oblige us and demonstrate the level of hate and bigotry in their hearts, but so did the anti-Momons within the leadership of FR. And thus began the decent of FR from a vibrant ad-hoc conservative think tank into an echo chamber of yes men with a loud group of religious bigots leading the way. It is sad to see it come to this, and I hope that the day comes when sanity returns. Something that needs to happen for that day to come is for the majority of people around here to face this reality: If you are not supporting Mitt Romney, you are playing into Obama’s hands. Any hopes of a brokered convention or third party conservative super-candidate are nothing but delusions fueled by a denial of reality. It comes down to either Mitt or Obama, and if you are not supporting Mitt you are helping Obama. Deal with it.

And don’t try to hide behind the idea that Mitt losing will be good in the long term for conservatism. That is putting your partisanship above your patriotism. Obama has done massive damage to the USA, and if you give him another 4 years you may not have a USA left at the end of his term. What good will this theoretical transformation of the GOP then? Truth is that if Mitt loses, no matter how conservative or liberal his campaign and policies are, the media will blame it on him being too right-wing and drive the GOP to the left as much as they can. Also, the good of the country should come first if you want to call yourself a patriot, and having Mitt in the White House will be much better for the USA than having Obama there.

While Mitt is not perfect (nobody is) I find many of the attacks on him so over the top, so full of exaggeration and fear mongering that ignores contrary evidence or any sense of proportion that I can’t help but suspect they hyperbole is just a mask for darker motives. The fact that in many cases these attacks come from those who also display great hostility towards Mormonism says it all. Deny it all you want, it is easy to see. For a satirical look at it, check this video I made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG68yz-mMgE

I am going to make some predictions I would like to make, and I hope this thread stays around so that in years to come you can all look back and see how it turned out:

- every conservative you respect will vote for Mitt, all of them (perhaps a couple excepts, but not many) will even endorse him and perhaps campaign with him

- President Romney will do very well on the economy and on foreign affairs/national security

- President Romney will conduct himself with honor and integrity both in office and in his personal life

- You will hear conservative pundits call him this generation’s Ronald Reagan, or Ronald Reagan’s 3rd term or something along those lines

- If there is an assassination attempt on him, it will either be by the Chineese, or by some religiously motivated nutjob (Islamic or Evangelical)

And for those of you anti-Mormons out there, I have some prediction for you too. And these apply even if Romney is not elected as POTUS:

- Your grandchildren will call Mormons Christians, and look at Mormonism as the third branch of Christianity alongside Catholicism and Protestantism

- All the attacks against Romney that stem from the anti-Mormon garbage you have bought into will result in the attacker either apologizing, or in their loss of credibility. The more anti-Mormon attacks are made in the mainstream media, the worse the attackers will look.

- Your grandchildren will likewise look at such attacks as being as bigoted and wrong, even when they come from you.

- Some of your grandchildren or great-grandchildren will become Mormons, and after you are dead they will have temple ordinances performed for you, and you will be glad at the time that they do.

I dare you to post your own predictions of what a Romney presidency will result in.

I dare FR to leave this thread open and available for comments and to not delete a single comment from it.

I dare FR to start respecting freedom of religion by not playing favorites towards one religious group as is currently done by disallowing Mormon caucus threads, and if that is too big a challenge for you, the do away with the Religion Forum altogether.

I dare you all to give Mormons and Mormonism the respect it deserves to have as the 4th largest denomination in the USA, stalwart defender of traditional values, glowing example of Christian charity at home and around the world, the most conservative people of all religious groups, and staunch defenders of the principles of the constitution and values that built the country. No matter how much you disagree with us on religious matters, we are and should be treated as valuable conservative allies. Until FR does that, all they do is shoot themselves in the foot.

To: saminfl

I see the problem as this...Mitt didn't just proclaim himself as the winning candidate. Voters put him there. He was absolutely my last choice as a candidate, but I truly believe Obama has to go or we will not have a U.S.

In the primary, romney did NOT win fair and square. It had NOTHING to do with his religion. ( those who use the race or religion card have the same character traits as obama) He cheated his way there (with the help of the gop and his friends in various states). He cheated us out of our vote. The ends justify the means is a communist/marxist tactic. Win at all cost. romney’s tactics were not to beat Obama, but to take our his REPUBLICAN opponents at all and any cost.

Iowa still has 8 different precincts who “lost” all their paperwork. Members of Romney's church have been working the precincts.

http://www.npr.org/2012/01/20/145500170/8-precinct-vote-totals-missing-from-iowa-caucuses

The GOP gave romney Iowa after a caucus worker went to the media and told them romney only had 2 votes in that county not 22. It took over two weeks to correct-time enough for romney to get NH.

http://caucuses.desmoinesregister.com/2012/01/06/appanoose-county-gop-chairman-im-confident-the-results-are-accurate
He had his friends kick some his opponents off the ballots in some states.

In the last year romney and some of his supporters helped romney by changing many states rules: Some conservative states were changed to split delegates and some liberal states were changed to winner take all. This heavily favored romney and hurts conservatives.

Romney, Virginia GOP commits election fraud: FOX News
The Examiner
Michael Phelps

With only minutes before the first Super-Tuesday Caucuses were set to close, FOX News and the University of Virginia Center for Politics reported a likely election fraud situation, committed by Mitt Romney and the Virginia GOP.

Multiple states across the country reported precincts tampered with, votes permanently lost, elections oddly postponed, permanently unverifiable results, and now simply not even allowing candidates to even be on the ballot to begin with.

Reporting from Virginia, FOX News’s Shannon Breen gave voice to political analyst, Virginia Tech’s Larry Sabato, who says it is very likely Mitt Romney and the Virginia GOP establishment, and their minions purposely kept signatures from being counted so, at least, Newt Gingrich wouldn’t be on Virginia’s ballot on Super-Tuesday.

With only minutes before the first Super-Tuesday Caucuses were set to close, FOX News and the University of Virginia Center for Politics reported a likely election fraud situation, committed by Mitt Romney and the Virginia GOP.

The establishment elite may be up to their usual 2012, nomination process shenanigans again as more people in positions of knowing have come forward to proclaim their displeasure with the establishment’s handling of challenges to their favorite candidate.
Multiple states across the country reported precincts tampered with, votes permanently lost, elections oddly postponed, permanently unverifiable results, and now simply not even allowing candidates to even be on the ballot to begin with.

Reporting from Virginia, FOX News’s Shannon Breen gave voice to political analyst, Virginia Tech’s Larry Sabato, who says it is very likely Mitt Romney and the Virginia GOP establishment, and their minions purposely kept signatures from being counted so, at least, Newt Gingrich wouldn’t be on Virginia’s ballot on Super-Tuesday.

If the allegations are investigated and found to be accurate, it would represent an addition to the growing list of reports showing the establishment elite to be manipulating the nomination process country wide, in favor on Mitt Romney.

Further stealing caucuses from other candidates, mainly Ron Paul, to likely insure the continuance of a 1%’r agenda that, according to Wall Street and the lion’s share of its campaign donation money, Mitt Romney is most likely to support should he be the nominee and beat Obama in November.

Supporting Medium:
FOX News (video): Romney & GOP kept Gingrich off of Virginia ballot
Examiner: Ron Paul’s wife, Carol Paul says elections are being stolen
CSM: Did Mitt Romney steal Maine caucuses from Ron Paul?
BuzzFeed: “Outrage”: Ron Paul Manager Claim Conspiracy In Maine
Political Wire: Santorum Says Romney Rigged Straw Poll
WSJ: Paul Campaign Challenges Romney's Maine Win
Examiner: Maine vote fraud official
Examiner: Nevada vote fraud official
Examiner: Iowa vote fraud official

Suggested by the author:
Iowa’s delegate seats for sale: Sources
Carol Paul: Election fraud confirmed
Romney Paul alliance: Pure establishment theater
Ron Paul Campaign: Establishment hiding Maine Caucus results
Newsmax accidentally prints Romney Nevada win article 2 days early

Romney is buying the election. Romney bought endorsements and had his friends buy attack ads so harsh and untrue, other candidates did not have a chance.

Romney was working with the gop establishment and various people in the media, to take out all the opposition. Just like obama has his hit people in the media hurting republicans, romney had his hit people hurting his opponents. Unfair and corrupt politicking. It's pretty low when you use the lefts tactics on the people on your side. It's about control and power for romney.

Why would ANYONE vote for another liar, cheat, thief.....pro abortion, pro gay marriage, pro gay adoption,.......politician? I will not stand before God and say I gave someone the power to kill an innocent baby or corrupt the hearts and minds of our children with the gay agenda....

Yes, I called romney a liar, cheat, thief.....I have the proof to post it. I don't think many here want to see the proof or hear it, I know it would not matter to them, character doesn't matter, only winning against the other liar, cheat, thief..........

422posted on Friday, June 15, 2012 6:59:24 PMby Linda Frances(Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness)

What an excellent summary of the primary theft. Thanks for posting.

I saw an anti-Romney ad on TV the other day that hit his conservative credentials, that he really only ranked 47th in the nation in job creation and some other blurb about his failure as a governor. Some no-name organization was responsible for it.

We can assume that it wasn’t a conservative opponent who was using a 3rd party to hit Romney from the right. Goode and Johnson don’t have the money to fund such an ad.

Therefore, it came from Obama. It’s only another installment in Obama attacks on Romney from every direction: left, right, center, religion, foreign policy, etc. And these people will use cut-outs when they don’t want their own fingerprints to be visible.

Any Romney supporter who thinks it should be hands-off on Romney’s religion is naive. A better course of action is to makes sure everyone knows everything about Mormonism, expose every conceivable wrinkle or flaw, and have it debated ad nauseum until people are tired of hearing about it.

That is called “innoculation” in political seasons. GWBush would have been well-served by coming out as a former problem drinker about this time in the primary season during his first run. That way, the October 31 surprise of a DUI would have had its day in the sun and been no big deal.

So, P-M, these people should be thanking you for detailing their unusual practices and beliefs of mormonism NOW. If you really wanted to hurt the guy, you’d hold that ammo until it really hurts. That’s why I expect to see the media hammer it in earnest some time shortly after the republican convention.

Face it: mormonism has some really weird beliefs. The real problem with exposing Romney so he can get his innoculation is that it probably injures mormon missionary outreach. Can’t have everybody knowing that mormons believe Jesus and Satan came from the same litter and that a pantheon of gods assemble on Kolob to elect new gods to their number.

If a THREAD starts up, with a broad appeal that FI's may be interested in; they get pinged.

Perhaps the 'LIST' was NOT pinged initially; but some poster, down the line, makes a STATEMENT that may appeal to us; THEN we get pinged.

Yesterday? Or the day before? Pardon my poor memory, it's as old as I am. Anyway, I pinged 4 names of people who I know to be Christians and "F.I.s . It was on a thread where a new member was being pounded for expressing his Christian views.

The club that was being used against him was his newness to Free Republic, the poster who was doing it had an '05 sign up date and I pinged you and a few others, after expressing my own 100% agreement with the noob and daring the name caller with the '05 date to "suspect" my motives. I knew you and the others I pinged would agree with the noob and let him know that he was not about to be zotted for expressing his Christianity in the respectful way he was doing it.

The agitator who was using his "seniority" to club the noob with, slunk away.

There are good and valid reasons for pinging other Christians, there are no valid reasons for using someone elses newness to Free Republic to threaten him/her with a zot for expressing his Christian beliefs in the manner that he did.

I try to not let someone's sign up date effect what I interpret what someone is saying, remembering my own experiences as a noob. The person I am engaging in conversation may have signed up yesterday but just possibly could have been forming their political and religious beliefs long, long before I joined F.R. and if he feels the urge to tell me I'm off base, I just gotta live with it and try to convince him of how wrong he is, without resorting to calling him "troll" or something equally odious.

I've been on the F.I. ping list since its inception for a reason, I don't always comment but the other F.I.s know me and know what I'm interested in and that I want to be pinged.

Note - I do not use the word "noob" disparagingly, it's just something we've all been through, except for J.R.

I'm talking about conservatives relegating the Republican Party to third-party status and you say I'm thinking small?

Absolutely! Your end goal is admirable, but you are aiming WAAAAY too small if you are relying on conservatives alone to get it done. To achieve any success, you would first have to increase the number of conservatives as a voting bloc by orders of magnitude. As things stand now, you would barely register on the radar screen or get labeled an extremist by all those other voting blocs on the right. You are a goldfish in a bowl full of sharks.

You vote the pack mentality and once the GOP-E has told you who you have to support

Wrong again. The GOP-E told all those Romney voters who to vote for in the primaries -and- they did just as they were told. I voted for Gingrich. Now, the choice comes down to two "most-viable" candidates: Obama & whoever the GOP runs. You want me to vote for someone other than the GOP candidate? Fine. Give me someone more viable than the GOP candidate and I will *DEFINITELY* vote for him. You have until Nov. 6th, 2012 when I walk into that voting booth to to get it done. Take your time.

I'm not beholden to the GOP, I'm beholden to whoever stands the best chance of beating Obama and I don't care who that is. If you don't feel the same, then I presume you are either desperate for some way to feel good about yourself (country be damned) and/or you actually prefer Obama for whatever reason. Knowingly voting for someone who you know darn well doesn't stand a snowball's chance is an act of futility.

Do me the courtesy of admitting that a principled group of conservatives can get a job done

They can, but name the last time a principled group of conservatives displaced the GOP's presidential candidate *after* the nominating convention? You can't. Local, State and US Congress races? Oh, heck yes! Presidential races? I admire your optimism, but wishful thinking won't get you anywhere and we lack the leverage to force it. Go fish.

If voting for Mitt Romney, or in your admittedly far-fetched example, the town drunk, advances grass-roots conservatism, I'd love to hear how that takes place.

If the majority of likely voter polling indicates the town-drunk leads all others opposing Obama, then that's who I vote for. Don't like the town-drunk? Then get your guy out in front. I don't care *who* it is as long as Obama is gone. We have three or four SCOTUS justices in their 80's. Given those appointments are for *LIFE* and we already know Obama favors lib/prog/lesbian/whatever Justices (Kagen & Sotomayor), I won't vote in any way that gives any statistical advantage to Obama that might lead to him picking one or more replacement justices next term. You can give him all the advantage you like, but don't even bother trying to sell me an infeasible long-shot. For the nth time, I'm voting for whoever stands the best chance of beating Obama at this point, whoever that may be. Currently that's the GOP candidate. Don't foolishly presume that indicates I support the GOP. If you get your candidate ahead of the GOP candidate, I'll switch in a heartbeat, GOP be damned. It is just that simple.

Opposition from the right will be useless by that point in time

What? A moment ago, you were all gung-ho on the miraculous power of a "a principled group of conservatives" doing the impossible. Get them together and make it known wide and far that we are seeking a primary challenger for the next election. We'll have 4 years - *YEARS* - to get our act together and apply whatever pressure we can bear. Right now we only have 4 months. You couldn't even get conservatives to agree on a candidate in four months. That's why the most viable candidate is the only sane option.

You are talking about abandoning Romney to get some stealth candidate out in front and you can't even name an alternate candidate that a majority of conservatives will agree on. Now, if there was such a candidate, we would not be having this conversation and you know it. We would all be united behind *OUR* candidate and we'd all on the same sheet of music (or the clear majority of us would be).

Look, I don't care to hear about your fantasy candidate. I don't care to hear the same old retreaded complaints about Romney - you're preaching to the choir. All I want to hear about is a specific candidate and how we convince all the needed voting blocs to pull the lever for that guy over Obama. Then we need to see some polling of likely voters indicating that they are buying what we are selling. I don't care if that's the GOP candidate, some stealth candidate or even the town drunk. You get him in the lead -- I vote for him. Plain & simple.

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