Posted on 06/13/2012 6:05:21 PM PDT by Grig
This may be the post that gets me zotted, and if so, so be it, but it would be a nice sign of respect for free speech, and just plain old maturity if that doesn’t happen. I won’t lose sleep either way though.
All through the Clinton years FR played a key role in helping me really come to appreciate the wisdom of the founding fathers as Clinton violated their principles in so many ways. I found here a large community of wise, informed posters from a diverse background that added depth and clarity to the news of the day. It was here on FR that I found out about the WTC attack. Being Canadian, the second amendment always seemed kind of silly to me, but through FR I learned how wrong that view was and now wish my country had such a right for it’s citizens.
That was then, now more and more it has felt like FR has dwindled into an insular, nearly feral, group of political and religious thought police whose mission is to ferret out anybody who doesn’t fit their orthodoxy and get rid of them, while propagandizing against anything the disagree with. At times it feels more energy is spent attacking those who should be seen as allies rather than the true enemies. I used to spend a fair bit of time here each day, now perhaps a quick look once every few weeks because of this change in climate. I know many have left because of it, many have already posted their concerns about it, and their wise observations and suggestions have fallen on deaf ears.
I do feel I have a small measure of responsibility for the change (but no guilt). When FR started to fail to live up to it’s own rules about not bashing religions (when it came to my religion) we Mormon posters decided that instead of being party to the creation of long threads filled with contention that made it hard for the moderators see the difference in our behavior and theirs, we decided instead to simply post articles putting forward our position and leave the critics to show their true colors. (see http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2013341/posts). Not only did the anti-Mormon posters oblige us and demonstrate the level of hate and bigotry in their hearts, but so did the anti-Momons within the leadership of FR. And thus began the decent of FR from a vibrant ad-hoc conservative think tank into an echo chamber of yes men with a loud group of religious bigots leading the way. It is sad to see it come to this, and I hope that the day comes when sanity returns. Something that needs to happen for that day to come is for the majority of people around here to face this reality: If you are not supporting Mitt Romney, you are playing into Obama’s hands. Any hopes of a brokered convention or third party conservative super-candidate are nothing but delusions fueled by a denial of reality. It comes down to either Mitt or Obama, and if you are not supporting Mitt you are helping Obama. Deal with it.
And don’t try to hide behind the idea that Mitt losing will be good in the long term for conservatism. That is putting your partisanship above your patriotism. Obama has done massive damage to the USA, and if you give him another 4 years you may not have a USA left at the end of his term. What good will this theoretical transformation of the GOP then? Truth is that if Mitt loses, no matter how conservative or liberal his campaign and policies are, the media will blame it on him being too right-wing and drive the GOP to the left as much as they can. Also, the good of the country should come first if you want to call yourself a patriot, and having Mitt in the White House will be much better for the USA than having Obama there.
While Mitt is not perfect (nobody is) I find many of the attacks on him so over the top, so full of exaggeration and fear mongering that ignores contrary evidence or any sense of proportion that I can’t help but suspect they hyperbole is just a mask for darker motives. The fact that in many cases these attacks come from those who also display great hostility towards Mormonism says it all. Deny it all you want, it is easy to see. For a satirical look at it, check this video I made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG68yz-mMgE
I am going to make some predictions I would like to make, and I hope this thread stays around so that in years to come you can all look back and see how it turned out:
- every conservative you respect will vote for Mitt, all of them (perhaps a couple excepts, but not many) will even endorse him and perhaps campaign with him
- Mitt will become the next POTUS in a landslide victory,
- President Romney will do very well on the economy and on foreign affairs/national security
- President Romney will conduct himself with honor and integrity both in office and in his personal life
- He will be a better president than either Bush was
- You will hear conservative pundits call him this generation’s Ronald Reagan, or Ronald Reagan’s 3rd term or something along those lines
- President Romney will be re-elected in another big victory
- His Vice President will become POTUS after his second term
- If there is an assassination attempt on him, it will either be by the Chineese, or by some religiously motivated nutjob (Islamic or Evangelical)
And for those of you anti-Mormons out there, I have some prediction for you too. And these apply even if Romney is not elected as POTUS:
- Your grandchildren will call Mormons Christians, and look at Mormonism as the third branch of Christianity alongside Catholicism and Protestantism
- All the attacks against Romney that stem from the anti-Mormon garbage you have bought into will result in the attacker either apologizing, or in their loss of credibility. The more anti-Mormon attacks are made in the mainstream media, the worse the attackers will look.
- Your grandchildren will likewise look at such attacks as being as bigoted and wrong, even when they come from you.
- Some of your grandchildren or great-grandchildren will become Mormons, and after you are dead they will have temple ordinances performed for you, and you will be glad at the time that they do.
I dare you to post your own predictions of what a Romney presidency will result in.
I dare FR to leave this thread open and available for comments and to not delete a single comment from it.
I dare FR to start respecting freedom of religion by not playing favorites towards one religious group as is currently done by disallowing Mormon caucus threads, and if that is too big a challenge for you, the do away with the Religion Forum altogether.
I dare you all to give Mormons and Mormonism the respect it deserves to have as the 4th largest denomination in the USA, stalwart defender of traditional values, glowing example of Christian charity at home and around the world, the most conservative people of all religious groups, and staunch defenders of the principles of the constitution and values that built the country. No matter how much you disagree with us on religious matters, we are and should be treated as valuable conservative allies. Until FR does that, all they do is shoot themselves in the foot.
Ignorance of Mormonism seems to common with LDS “experts”...
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Very, very true. Those of us who know what they teach, don’t defend them.
We can’t count the number of times we have seen “I don’t know much about what Mormons believe, but....”
Oh that's too easy. It will be precisely what Massachusetts experienced when Mitt Rom was governor.
+pro-homosexual "rights" (including "don't ask, don't tell")
+anti-2nd Amendment
+pro-global warming
+pro-homosexual marriage
+pro-choice (supports abortion "rights")
+favorite novel is by L. Ron Hubbard, really?
+pro-nationalized healthcare
+pro-taxes
I also came to FR for debate, not to stifle it.
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We aren’t the ones stifling debate, we encourage it. We would love the LDS to actually debate about their faith, to defend it insead of whining and crying ‘persecution’.
It is the ones like you, who want free speech for them, but not for us that are stifling debate.
Something for you to think about.
You are thinking waaay too small. Like I said, conservatives can't do it alone. Look at all the different types of folks who are bank-rolling and voting for Romney. Those are the folks you need to persuade.
Me? I'm voting for whoever leads the pack against Obama at the moment I walk into the voting booth. But for someone to lead the pack, they are going to have to look far beyond us conservatives. Conservatives as a voting bloc are easily outnumbered by all the other registered republicans, centrists, RINOs, right-leaning dems, libertarians, independants, north-east-country-clubbers, etc, etc, etc...
Your unknown candidates won't go far enough via the conservative grassroots alone. All those voting demographics I mentioned above? The vast majority of them will vote like they are told to vote, by the MSM, the Dems and the GOP. It is entirely frustrating, but that's what we are up against. People no longer look at voting like they did in the 50's.
I'm not voting to make myself feel good. That's what the primaries were for. Now I'm voting for survival and damage control. At this point, I don't care who I vote for, as long as he stand the best chance of defeating Obama. I'll vote for the town drunk if he's out in front.
That being said, I'm also not against primary-ing Romney if he's elected. In fact, I hope we do find some candidate we can all agree on (pipe dream, I know) to primary Romney if he's elected, if only to keep the pressure on.
(You're "sick" -- iow, intolerant -- of Elsie taking it to Mormonism...which happen to be based upon Elsie's religious beliefs...which means, yes, after, all, you are intolerant of the way Elsie practices what he believes in this digital setting)
Democrats, in contrast, accept Puerto Rican mad bombers, Bill Ayers and Brent Kimberlin as just a day to day occurrence.
Part of the equation is that the intramountain West is one of those areas where crackpots can hide out for centuries, so they got'em ~ more than their fair share actually!
I'm thinking small? I'm talking about conservatives relegating the Republican Party to third-party status and you say I'm thinking small? Hardly. If there's anything we ought to have learned from 2010 it's that individuals can think for themselves. They don't need big money to tell them how to vote. They need to believe that their vote makes a difference and if the party doesn't give them what they want, they can effect real change.
Me? I'm voting for whoever leads the pack against Obama at the moment I walk into the voting booth. But for someone to lead the pack, they are going to have to look far beyond us conservatives. Conservatives as a voting bloc are easily outnumbered by all the other registered republicans, centrists, RINOs, right-leaning dems, libertarians, independants, north-east-country-clubbers, etc, etc, etc...
You're the one who needs to think big. You vote the pack mentality and once the GOP-E has told you who you have to support, you knuckle under. Sorry to be so blunt, but that's what you've done. That's not thinking big.
We're the base of the Republican Party. Without us they aren't able to win national elections. The phrase goes "Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line." When we fall in line, we get candidates like John McCain and Bob Dole -- who STILL lose.
Your unknown candidates won't go far enough via the conservative grassroots alone. All those voting demographics I mentioned above? The vast majority of them will vote like they are told to vote, by the MSM, the Dems and the GOP. It is entirely frustrating, but that's what we are up against. People no longer look at voting like they did in the 50's.
Tell that to Mike Lee and Richard Mourdock. I admitted that my way is a longshot before, but we've had success. Do me the courtesy of admitting that a principled group of conservatives can get a job done. But you're right, people no longer look at voting like they did in the 50s. Thanks in part to the Tea Party, they now think for themselves.
I'm not voting to make myself feel good. That's what the primaries were for. Now I'm voting for survival and damage control. At this point, I don't care who I vote for, as long as he stand the best chance of defeating Obama. I'll vote for the town drunk if he's out in front.
I'm not casting a feel-good vote either. I'm voting for a conservative because only a conservative can save the Republic. And Mitt Romney ain't it, sir. Others have said it, but it does need to be said again. This site exists for the advancement of grass-roots conservatism. It's on the home page. If voting for Mitt Romney, or in your admittedly far-fetched example, the town drunk, advances grass-roots conservatism, I'd love to hear how that takes place.
That being said, I'm also not against primary-ing Romney if he's elected. In fact, I hope we do find some candidate we can all agree on (pipe dream, I know) to primary Romney if he's elected, if only to keep the pressure on.
There hasn't been primary pressure on an incumbent President since Ted Kennedy primaried Jimmy Carter in 1980. And even that didn't last. As President, Romney will control the party apparatus, he'll control appointments, and he'll get his way. Opposition from the right will be useless by that point in time. That means 2020 at the earliest before we get another shot at a conservative candidate, who would presumably have to run against Romney's Vice President in the event he wins a second term. I'm sorry. That's not good enough. I'm not going to support that and I'm sure not going to vote for it. However, I respect your right to do so.
I had not posted on this thread - didn't even know the thread existed until I read your private mail to me - and then had a hard time finding the thread so’s I could try to fathom what the blazes you were foaming about.
A couple things: You would be hard to find a FR’er who posted more information AGAINST Romney during the primaries. I cached and reposted lists of videos showing why he should be defeated. Any honest FR-er can look at my posts during that time and see that, other that the nut job, Ron Paul, Romney was my dead-last choice.
HOWEVER, it's the hand we have been dealt. It's him or an American hating Muslim determined to carry out the ONE WORLD ORDER agenda for his puppeteers - and destroy this country. Four more years and we will never again have a free election. Our country, our freedoms, will be gone. IT’s THAT DAMN SIMPLE.
People blinded by misplaced self-righteousness who can't see beyond their hate of Mormonism are poisoning the well.
Some make spewing hatred of the LDS church their life's mission. How many looooong, hate laced posts has dear elsie put on this one thread tonight? I lost count.
It is deeply disturbing to many of us here that such space is allowed - like turning FR over for their personal, hate-spewed, unbridled use?
This is not, I would think, a forum or the time for such hatred and religious bashing.
For the mods to allow this all but total take over for such hatred when the issues facing us and our country is so crucial RIGHT NOW - and serves to distract from the task at hand - getting ‘bummer and his minions out of the WH and saving our freedoms - is beginning to look like FR is condoning this.
I hope not - but in the light of all the vicious religious attacks on one religion, glaringly apparent on this thread and without one peep from the mods, even with one FR-er posting pages and pages of hate - it ‘walks, talks and looks like a duck.”
I know many FR’ers have been hanging in with FR with the hope that the FR of old will once again right itself. Too many have already left. I fear there will another sharp decline before Nov.
I pray the blinders will be taken off and restore the FR we knew, loved and respected.
NOTE: you posters of hate - and you know who you are, post away but don't waste your diatribes on me for I am outta here and will not see them, will not read them, will not respond...any more than I would stoop to converse with ‘bummer and his gang.
Pray for America.
I live in one of the most conservative counties in my state. I assure you that if you did a telephone survey of my county and asked respondents about Virgil Goode, or Tom Hoefling, most would ask "Who?"
How are posting the words of lds leaders hate towards mormons?
Definitely you will find nothing but respect and neutrality from Jewish FReepers. We believe that everyone should have the freedom to worship as they wish.
I voted for mitt Romney twice now, and I am not a fan. His panty-twisting today only confirmed that he is no conservative. But he is better than Obama so he has my support.
I’m sorry you feel affronted here because of your beliefs. I wish you well.
You are correct about people being free to worship as they wish, no one has said otherwise.
That however, has nothing to do with the discussion and exposure of mormonism.
For instance, mormonism consider it self to be “the chosen”. The rest of us are Gentiles.
They are baptizing dead Jews, primarily concentrating on Holocaust victims and hitler w posse.
But oh, well I wish you well.
Do you consider Mormons to be Christian?
What's sleazy are the number of people willing to look the other way or put on blinders and support his ass. What's even more precious are the "if it doesn't bother me, its all good" crowd who don't mind mormons calling themselves Christians. Let's just re-define what it means to be Christian so that anyone with any belief system that's contrary to the bible can be a Christian. Hell, marriage is being re-defined to let the gays get married, might as well bring down Christianity while they are at it.
Good Bye Grig, you son of satan. Float off to the netherworld with your celestial BS and framed pictures of Romney.
You keep making accusations of ‘hate’ yet have ever posted an example as proof.
That works for me.
Now; let’s get a CONSERVATIVE in office!!
Uh; you appear to spelled PATHETIC wrong.
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