Santorum: Zimmerman ‘has a very sick mind,’ motive ‘a malicious one’

The Daily Caller ^ | March 25, 2012 | Jeff Poor

[expat1000]

On “Face the Nation” Sunday on CBS, Republican presidential hopeful Rick Santorum explained that his view of the Trayvon Martin shooting differed significantly from the one held by former House Speaker Newt Gingrich.

[allmendream]

“MSM fabricates a mugshot of Neighborhood Watch Captain Zimmerman”

No, that was a genuine 2005 mugshot from Orange County (FL) jail - where Zimmerman has twice been a temporary resident - both times for violence.

“In one case, Zimmerman allegedly pushed a state alcohol agent who was arresting one of Zimmerman's friends. He “avoided conviction by entering a pretrial-diversion program, something common for first-time offenders.” In the other case, he was accused by a woman of domestic violence. Zimmerman “responded by filing a petition of his own the following day.” Injunctions have kept the cases’ outcomes sealed, the Sentinel says.”

[Reese Hamm]

But not before Zimmerman said "he's coming over to check me out".

Which occurs at 19:10:55. Zimmerman tells the dispatcher "he's running!" about a minute later at 19:11:41 and opens his vehicle door. They basically stared at one another for 46 seconds while Zimmerman sat in his vehicle.

Have you listened to the entire, unedited 911 dispatcher call from Zimmerman? It's about 4 minutes long.

Four minutes, five seconds give or take...

19:09:34	Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department, line is being recorded. This is Sean.
19:09:38	Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.
19:09:51	Zimmerman: This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
19:09:59	Dispatcher: Okay, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
19:10:01	Zimmerman: He looks black.
19:10:03	Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
19:10:05	Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes.
19:10:14	Zimmerman: He's here now and he’s just staring…
19:10:17	Dispatcher: Oh, he's just walking around the area…
19:10:17	Zimmerman: …looking at all the houses.
19:10:19	Dispatcher: Ah, ‘kay…
19:10:20	Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
19:10:22	Dispatcher: Okay—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
19:10:25	Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…
19:10:27	Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
19:10:31	Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
19:10:33	Dispatcher: Okay.
19:10:37	Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband.
19:10:42	Zimmerman: And he's a black male.
19:10:43	Dispatcher: Okay. How old would you say he looks?
19:10:45	Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt..
19:10:46	Zimmerman: ..late teens.
19:10:47	Dispatcher: Late teens, okay.
19:10:48	Zimmerman: Mmhuh.
19:10:51	Zimmerman: Something’s wrong with him.
19:10:55	Zimmerman: Ayup, he's coming to check me out.
19:10:58	Zimmerman: He's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.
19:11:01	Dispatcher: Okay, just let me know if he does anything okay…
19:11:02	Zimmerman: How long until you get an officer over here?
19:11:03	Dispatcher: Yeah, we've got ‘em on the way - just let me know if this guy does anything else.
19:11:08	Zimmerman: Okay.
19:11:11	Zimmerman: Ugh - these assholes, they always get away.
19:11:17	Zimmerman: Yep.
19:11:19	Zimmerman: When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in…and make a left.
19:11:25	Zimmerman: Actually. You would go past the clubhouse.
19:11:28	Dispatcher: Ah. You say it's on the left hand side from the clubhouse?
19:11:32	Zimmerman: Naaah…you go in straight through the entrance…and then you make a left…uh…yea, you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left-
19:11:40	Zimmerman: - ah shit.
19:11:41	Zimmerman: He's running.
19:11:42	Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?
19:11:44	[sound of vehicle door opening]
19:11:45	Zimmerman: Down towards the, uh, other entrance to the neighborhood.
19:11:48	Dispatcher: Okay, which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
19:11:50	Zimmerman: The back entrance…
19:11:54	Zimmerman: Fucking [unintelligible]
19:11:56	Dispatcher: Are you following him?
19:11:58	Zimmerman: Yeah
19:11:59	Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.
19:12:02	Zimmerman: Ok
	[muffled noises – wind? heavy breathing?]
19:12:08	Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name?
19:12:10	Zimmerman: George
19:12:11	Zimmerman: He ran.  [muffled – breathless?]
19:12:14	Dispatcher: Alright George what's your last name?
19:12:17	Zimmerman: [two slapping/tapping noises] Zimmerman
19:12:18	Dispatcher: And George what's the phone number you're calling from?
19:12:19	[more slapping/flapping noises]
19:12:21	Zimmerman: 407-***-****[redacted]
19:12:26	Dispatcher: Alright George we do have them on the way, do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
19:12:30	Zimmerman: Yeah.
19:12:31	Dispatcher: Alright, where you going to meet with them at?
19:12:34	Zimmerman: Um, if they come in through the uh, gate -- tell them to go straight past the club house, [more slapping/flapping noises] and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, they’ll see my truck...[unintelligible]
19:12:53	Dispatcher: Okay. What address are you parked in front of?
19:12:55	Zimmerman: Um. I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
19:13:00	Dispatcher: Okay do you live in the area?
19:13:01	Zimmerman: Yeah, yeah…I live...[unintelligible]
19:13:02	Dispatcher: What’s your apartment number?
19:13:06	Zimmerman: It’s a home it’s 1950 [more slapping/flapping noises]
19:13:09	Zimmerman:  Aw crap. I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t know where this kid is.
19:13:12	Dispatcher: Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?
19:13:16	Zimmerman: Yeah that’s fine. [more faint slapping/flapping noises]
19:13:20	Dispatcher: Alright George, I’ll let them know to meet you [unintelligible] there okay?
19:13:21	Zimmerman: Actually could you…could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?
19:13:25	Dispatcher: Okay, yeah that’s no problem.
19:13:27	Zimmerman: You need my number or you got it?
19:13:28	Dispatcher: Yeah I got it. 407-***-**** [redacted]?
19:13:29	Zimmerman: Yeah you got it.
19:13:33	Dispatcher: Okay no problem, I’ll let them know to call you when you’re in the area.
19:13:36	Zimmerman: Thanks.
19:13:37	Dispatcher: You’re welcome.

[Reese Hamm]

You're kidding, right. The "kid" was 17...

I'm pushing 50; 17 is a kid to me but if it helps the discussion, I'll refer to him as a teenager.

and 6' 2".

I've read that he was anywhere from 6' to 6'4" and weighted between 140 and 200 pounds. However, Wayne Williams was short and pudgy and Jeffrey Dahmer was tall and lanky - both targeted males in their teens and twenties. And even succeeded in killing a few if the trial results are accurate. "Stranger danger" was all the rage from about the early '80s until very recently. This teenager would have heard it from every corner his entire life.

It is just as reasonable to speculate on Martin's state of mind as it is to speculate on Zimmerman's -- and speculating is really all any of us are doing.

[justlurking]

If Martin's girlfriend is telling the truth and Zimmerman initiated physical contact with Martin, then it could also be reasonable for Martin to fear for his life when a man he knew had been watching/following/looking for him...grabbed him or took a swing at him. Under that scenario, Martin would have no "duty to retreat" could "meet force with force, including deadly force" i.e. taking Zimmerman to the ground and pounding his head on the sidewalk.

I haven't heard the entire interview with Martin's girlfriend, but I wasn't aware that she said that Zimmerman initiated physical contact.

According to what I've read, she said:

"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."

She didn't say who initiated physical contact.

[entropy12]

Evangelical Christians must believe Santorum can pass laws favorable to their beliefs. He also has been touting himself as the most conservative of the 4 remaining. That is only true on social issues. Santorum’s voting record in US Senate is clearly not conservative. He voted for over 100 spending increases and zero cuts. Newt is far more conservative on fiscal issues.

[Reese Hamm]

She didn't say who initiated physical contact.

I had wondered how she could know who touched who first so it's good to hear that her statement doesn't claim that. It seems strange that someone who was talking on the phone would take a swing at someone else but then this whole case has as many questions as it does answers, it seems.

[Miss Behave]

"It could be argued that a kid raised in the "stranger danger" era might feel threatened by someone following him."

It could be argued (easily) that you, like Santorum, are a real threat and danger to truth and basic common sense.

Why, by ANY two-brain-cell reasoning, would ANYONE who feels impending acute immediate personal danger or threat--of ANY degree--instead of swiftly taking ANY of a number of other freely-open pathways AWAY from it--turn back TOWARD the "danger/threat" and TACKLE and PUMMEL INTO CONCRETE WITHOUT RELENT the retreated "scary and dangerous" adult male who supposedly caused the "stranger danger kid" to to be so SCARED CR@PLESS?

You and your laughable logic are an embarrassment to basic common sense, rational thought, and halfway intelligent reasoning.

[Reese Hamm]

Who said scared crapless? I said felt threatened which is all the Florida statute requires.

It could be that Martin told himself that he was being a wuss to run away and mustered up the bravo to ask Zimmerman why he was following him AND THEN panicked anew when, thinking Zimmerman was going a weapon, punched Zimmerman who was merely reaching for his phone as he stated he was doing when Martin clocked him.

Hell, the saddest part of this whole situation is that it is entirely possible for it to be a complete and utter tragedy without either party being the "bad guy."

[justlurking]

Who said scared crapless? I said felt threatened which is all the Florida statute requires.

I corrected you earlier, and pointed you to the statute. If you repeat it again, you are lying.

"Feeling threatened" is the only prerequisite if you are in a habitation, dwelling, or vehicle.

Under the circumstances where Martin encounter Zimmerman, or vice versa, the use of force in self-defense is only legal to meet force with force.

Read the law. If you don't believe me, ask a lawyer. However, you are apparently not qualified to read the law and interpret it.

[Miss Behave]

LOL. You're all over the board.

"Stranger danger kid" suddenly turns into "Gotta know-now Joe" cuz it's more reflexive a human instinct to feel good about yourself than it is to save yourself from perceived bodily harm doncha know.

Martin's pursuit of "scary" Zimmerman is akin to spotting a spooky-music Twin Peaks ten-foot-tall buzzsaw in an empty logging plant and (with no one around) saying to yourself...

"Hey, I think I'll go over and lick that thing. I'd look pretty cool."

[throwback]

Maybe this kid was thug, but I can tell you this if somebody follows me through a neighborhood with a gun that I don’t know, I’ll be calling the police. People that have %10 of the facts and 100% of the answers only bother me when they have the authority to impose their answers on me. I guess that’s why I’m not in the military anymore because I don’t have to pay any attention to people that don’t write my check.

[Reese Hamm]

No, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on the internet. ;)

CHAPTER 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE
776.012 Use of force in defense of person.
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.
776.031 Use of force in defense of others.
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.
776.05 Law enforcement officers; use of force in making an arrest.
776.051 Use of force in resisting arrest or making an arrest or in the execution of a legal duty; prohibition.
776.06 Deadly force.
776.07 Use of force to prevent escape.
776.08 Forcible felony.
776.085 Defense to civil action for damages; party convicted of forcible or attempted forcible felony.

Sections that appears applicable:

776.012 
Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or (2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013. History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1188, ch. 97-102; s. 2, ch. 2005-27.

Nothing about a house, dwelling or residence - that is the next section down, 776.013. You can't use deadly force if you just think you're going to get grabbed, slapped, or punched but you can if you think you're going to die or the other person is about to commit a forcible felony - rape, kidnapping, etc.

and

776.06 
Deadly force.— (1) The term “deadly force” means force that is likely to cause death or great bodily harm and includes, but is not limited to: (a) The firing of a firearm in the direction of the person to be arrested, even though no intent exists to kill or inflict great bodily harm; and (b) The firing of a firearm at a vehicle in which the person to be arrested is riding. (2)(a) The term “deadly force” does not include the discharge of a firearm by a law enforcement officer or correctional officer during and within the scope of his or her official duties which is loaded with a less-lethal munition. As used in this subsection, the term “less-lethal munition” means a projectile that is designed to stun, temporarily incapacitate, or cause temporary discomfort to a person without penetrating the person’s body. (b) A law enforcement officer or a correctional officer is not liable in any civil or criminal action arising out of the use of any less-lethal munition in good faith during and within the scope of his or her official duties. History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1, ch. 99-272. No, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on the internet.

Now, SUPPOSEDLY, by George's own statement, this is what happened:

Zimmerman told police that he lost sight of Martin and was walking back to his SUV when Martin approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.

"Exchanged words." Zimmerman didn't claim that Martin came out of the dark and sucker punched him.

Martin asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police.

"reached for his cell phone" - that is again SUPPOSEDLY Zimmerman's own claim.

Martin, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose.

Is it so very impossible to believe that Martin might have thought Zimmerman was going for a weapon. ESPECIALLY if he saw or caught a glimpse of the gun/holster as Zimmerman reached for the phone? Is it so impossible to believe at that moment, "imminent death or great bodily harm to himself" crossed his mind and he reacted with deadly force i.e. punching Zimmerman and pounding his head on the sidewalk? Even if you've succeeded in knocking someone down, you can't outrun a bullet.

You seem to think that because I'm playing "what if" from Martin's point of view that I'm trying to vilify Zimmerman. I'm not.

I'm pointing out that NEITHER side has to be a monster for this to have still played out exactly as it did. They BOTH could have been acting in a matter they believed justified. And if the fight had gone the other way, there is a good chance that some would be arguing for Martin's innocence while others called for his head.

[trappedincanuckistan]

“I can tell you this if somebody follows me through a neighborhood with a gun that I don’t know, I’ll be calling the police.”

That raises an interesting question. If Martin felt threatened why didn’t use his cell phone to call the police?

[miss marmelstein]

If I had been in a primary state, I probably would have voted for this jerk. Thank God I don’t. Freepers have been telling me he’s an idiot but I refused to believe them.

[Reese Hamm]

LOL. You're all over the board.

What? You've never been in a situation where you react one way on instinct then tell yourself that you're just be silly, paranoid, cowardly, whatever and change course?

As mentioned above, trying to get into Martin's head and explain his actions/reactions isn't the same as clamoring for Zimmerman to be strung up by his willy from the highest tree and left to rot. For what it's worth, I think it's ludicrous to try to pretend that Zimmerman is some neo-Nazi, cop wannabe out to use the local black teens for target practice.

It is entirely possible, at least to me, that both of these guys were acting in a way they found reasonable, possibly even courageous. It's a tragedy.

[rolling_stone]

dont bring fists to a gunfight...

[Reese Hamm]

dont bring fists to a gunfight...

I couldn't agree more. But if I'm in a tense situation and a guy reaches for something, especially if I THEN see a gun that hadn't been visible before, odds are that I'll gonna do my damnest to hit him and make sure he isn't getting up anytime soon.

[Aevery_Freeman]

As a high school teacher I work with those kids and I've never seen a condition I would refer to as "juvenile xenophobia" among normally functioning teens. It often surprises me how little they respect their elders much less fear.

Seriously, I thought you were being sarcastic.

[Reese Hamm]

Everyone is acting like one or both of these guys should have been clairvoyant or psychic or something.

Zimmerman sees a unfamiliar person meandering through his neighborhood. He calls the police.

Martin sees a stranger who spends several minutes watching him. He's on the phone with his girl. He tries to stare the stranger down but his girl is urging him to run and he bolts and hides.

Zimmerman thinks a potential criminal is getting away. Again. And starts to follow only to be asked by dispatch not to. He tells himself that just because he's not following the guy, that doesn't mean that he can't try to get an idea of which way the guy went and proceeds to stroll across the cut through a few times. He finally decides the guy is gone and heads back to his truck.

Martin has now gotten a good look at this slightly pudgy guy in a red sweater and is kicking himself for running especially with his girl on the line. He musters up his courage and steps out of hiding and asks the guy "Why you following me?"

Zimmerman is startled but counters with "What are you doing here?"

Martin counters with "You got a problem?"

[Side note: I figure there is a good chance that a bit of arm grabbing and/or shoving took place at this point from one or both parties.]

Almost simultaneously:
Zimmerman says, "No"...
Martin replies, "You do now"...
...and reaches for his phone.
...sees the gun/holster as Zimmerman's hand brushes back his sweater pull out the phone.

Martin's brief bout of bravo evaporates and he's throwing punches to survive.

Zimmerman is stunned and hits the ground with Martin on top of him.

Martin's afraid to let up because he's seen Zimmerman's gun and thinks Zimmerman will kill him if he gets the chance.

One of them is screaming for help but it's not coming fast enough.

Zimmerman is down. He believes Martin is trying to kill him.

Help still hasn't arrived. Zimmerman has to make a choice and he chooses to draw his gun and fire.

Martin goes down.

Police arrive and the rest is history.

The curtain falls and the sad voice of the narrator intones: "Tell me - who is the monster in this sad tragedy?"

[The proceeding tale is just as likely as any other scenario given the currently available set of facts.]

[Reese Hamm]

As a high school teacher I work with those kids and I've never seen a condition I would refer to as "juvenile xenophobia" among normally functioning teens. It often surprises me how little they respect their elders much less fear.

Familiarity breeds contempt? Strength in numbers? In a school situation, the students know the adults and probably have a good idea of how that adult will react to a given action -- they also outnumber them significantly.

Have you studied a solitary student's attitude when confronted with the intense scrutiny of a stranger who's motives and actions they can't predict?

Seriously, I thought you were being sarcastic.

Naw. I just like to think outside the boxes that the media and even other people try to force us into.