True believer: How Mitt Romney... by wearing special Mormon underwear

UK Daily Mail ^ | February 14, 2012 | Graham Smith

[C19fan]

The Mormon faith of presidential candidate Mitt Romney has been one of the hot topics throughout the Republican's campaign. But a recent photo posted on social network website Twitter took speculation about the strength of his religious beliefs to new heights. It shows the GOP nominee wearing an unbuttoned white shirt with his Mormon underwear clearly visible underneath. Also known as a Temple garment, it typically covers the shoulders and extends to the knees, in deference to rules surrounding the Church of the Latter Day Saints' temples.

[Colofornian]

Frankly, if Prager said and meant this, then he's not quite so conservative as some people would make him out to be. I stand by keeping religion out of politics. Both areas have enough problems of their own to solve without involving the other and its host of problems.

#1 Prager has indicated that romney is NOT his fave candidate.

But #2 Prager has indicated he will vote for Romney if nominated.

In this way, I guess... (a) You're both on the same page in chiding Republicans to not take religion into consideration (Prager's already on the record in that way...having written a piece about that); and (b) If you, too, would vote for Romney if nominated, then I guess both Dennis & you is "not quite so conservative as some people would make" you both out to be.

[Elsie]

If you feel the best way to "fight for Christ" is to quarrel with your neighbor, I can respect that; but it is not my way.

Evidently you do NOT feel adequately trained to REBUKE your neighbor; I can understand that, but it can be corrected.

1. Know what you are talking about.
2. Pray for guidance.
3. Do not worry as to whether they will LIKE you or not.

---

 

---

 

Matthew 15:16
   "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

Matthew 23

 

  1.  Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
  2.  "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
  3.  So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
  4.  They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
  5.  "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries  wide and the tassels on their garments long;
  6.  they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
  7.  they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
  8.  "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
  9.  And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
 10.  Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
 11.  The greatest among you will be your servant.
 12.  For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
 13.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 
 14.  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 
 15.   "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. 
 16.  "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
 17.  You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
 18.  You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
 19.  You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
 20.  Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
 21.  And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
 22.  And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
 23.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
 24.  You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
 25.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
 26.  Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
 27.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!  You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
 28.  In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
 29.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
 30.  And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
 31.  So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
 32.  Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
 33.  "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
 34.  Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
 35.  And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
 36.  I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
 37.  "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
 38.  Look, your house is left to you desolate.
 39.  For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "

 

Mark 7:26-27
 26.  The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
 27.  "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

 

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And St. Paul chimes in...

---

Galatians 5:12
   As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

 

[NorthernCrunchyCon]

Jeff, you will notice that I have not attacked you personally, neither your character nor your sincerity. I will also assume you did not answer my questions in posts 77 and 125 because you are still looking into the questions. Fair enough.

Assuming sincerity and good faith on your part, I would have no difficulties with your profession of faith in Jesus Christ if you were Communities of Christ or another branch of Mormonism that remained (or returned to) Christianity. The problem in the past lay in the fact that Brighamite Mormons (LDS, FLDS, Kingston Group, etc) do not interpret theological or Christological language the same way as Christians. Therefore, to allow this conversation to move forward, I will post the Athanasian Creed - one of the three common creeds of historical Christianity, and the one that most thoroughly defines Christ and the Holy Trinity. Are there any points in this creed with which you as a LDS Mormon disagree? Which points and why?

**********************************
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

[Elsie]

I do not feel threatened by it because I don’t think that they will be attempting to convert by the sword.

 

The gruesome be headings of some 40 Ute corpses in 1850, heads stacked in boxes,

and hung by their long hair from the eves of buildings at Fort Utah,

 has long been ignored, “You didn’t see the Indians beheading the Mormons.”

 

-- Historian Robert Carter

[Elsie]

I'm glad you asked that question...

[greyfoxx39]

Placemark

[Elsie]

ASK Eliza!

http://www.manifestation.com/neurotoys/eliza.php3

(It is almost like conversing with some MORMONs on FR!)

[Elsie]

After reading your multiple testimonies here in this thread, praising Jesus and His atonement; I've not found ANY reason that places you into the church you have chosen.

What's so special about mormonISM?

These things you've typed could be Baptist, or Lutheran or even Catholic.

What makes YOU a MORMON?

[Tennessee Nana]

One LDS member on this thread professes Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and I believe him
__________________________________________

OK

This is what you are believing..

“It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it [the blood of Christ] can never remit.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, p. 54

“We would not kill a man, of course, unless we killed him to save him...”
- Apostle Jebediah M. Grant, Deseret News, July 27, 1854

“This is loving your neighbour as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, p. 220

“I will tell you how much I love those characters. If they had any respect to their own welfare, they would come forth and say, whether Joseph Smith was a Prophet or not, ‘We shed his blood, and now let us atone for it;’ and they would be willing to have their heads chopped off, that their blood might run upon the ground, and the smoke of it rise before the Lord as an incense for their sins.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 2, p. 179, February 18, 1855

“Will you love your brothers and sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Deseret News, April 16, 1856

“Any of you who understand the principles of eternity – if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death – would not be satisfied or rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain the salvation you desire. This is the way to love mankind.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Deseret News, April 16, 1856

“Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them. You would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the Kingdom of God. I would at once do so, in such a case; and under the circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands.... There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, pp. 108-109

“If you want to know what to do with a thief that you may find stealing, I say kill him on the spot, and never suffer him to commit another iniquity. I will prove by my works whether I can mete out justice to such persons, or not. I would consider it just as much my duty to do that, as to baptize a man for the remission of his sins.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, pp. 108-109

I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, p. 43

“Now take a person in this congregation who has knowledge with regard to being saved... and suppose that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding of blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin and may be saved and exalted with the God, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, ‘shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?’”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, pp. 219-220

“If men turn traitors to God and His servants, their blood will surely be shed, or else they will be damned, and that too according to their covenants.”
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, p. 375

“It is not fully comprehended why it was necessary that Jesus Christ should leave the heavens, ... and come upon the earth to offer himself up a sacrifice; ... why this should be, why it was necessary that his blood should be shed is an apparent mystery.... What sins of the world did he take away? We are told that it is the sin which Adam committed.”
- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 10, pp. 114-115

“I say, there are men and women that I would advise to go to the Presidency immediately, and ask him to appoint a committee to attend to their care; and then let a place be selected, and let that committee shed their blood. We have amongst us that are full of all manner of abominations, those who need to have their blood shed, for water will not do, their sins are too deep a dye... I believe that there are a great many; and if they are covenant breakers we need a place designated, where we can shed their blood... Brethren and sisters, we want you to repent and forsake your sins. And you who have committed sins that cannot be forgiven through baptism, let your blood be shed, and let the smoke ascend, that the incense thereof may come up before God as an atonement for your sins, and that the sinners in Zion may be afraid.”
- Apostle Jebediah M. Grant, 2nd counselor to Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, pp. 49-51

“... We may talk of men being redeemed by the efficacy of his [Christ’s] blood; but the truth is that that blood has no efficacy to wash away our sins. That must depend upon our own action.”
- Apostle Amasa M. Lyman, Apostle, Journal of Discourses, v. 7, p. 299, 1859

“Has Jesus done anything that will bring salvation to you and me? The chief of what he has done is that he has revealed the plan of the Gospel – the scheme of human redemption, and manifested himself among his brethren; and we may say he has done a great deal more, for he has shed his blood for it. So have others shed their blood. But whose blood has cleansed you and me? It is said that the blood of Jesus cleanses from all sins. Then why is it that we remain sinners? It is simply because the blood of Jesus has not cleansed us from sin – because it has not reached us.”
- Apostle Amasa M. Lyman, Apostle, Journal of Discourses, v. 7, p. 298

“... inasmuch as the blood of Christ was shed for original sin unconditionally, but for the remission of actual sin conditionally.”
- Apostle Charles W. Penrose, Journal of Discourses, v. 21, pp. 81-82

“Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church.”
- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 1, pp. 135-136, 1954

“The Mormons believe in blood atonement. It is taught by the leaders, and believed by the people, that the Priesthood are inspired and cannot give a wrong order. It is the belief of all that I ever heard talk of these things – and I have been with the Church since the dark days in Jackson County – that the authority that orders is the only responsible party and the Danite who does the killing only an instrument, and commits no wrong.... Punishment by death is the penalty for refusing to obey the orders of the Priesthood.

“I knew of many men being killed in Nauvoo by the Danites. It was then the rule that all the enemies of the Prophet Joseph should be killed, and I know of many a man who was quietly put out of the way by the orders of Joseph and his apostles while the Church was there. It has always been a well understood doctrine of the Church that it is right and praiseworthy to kill every person who speaks evil of the Prophet. This doctrine was strictly lived up to in Utah...”
- Elder John D. Lee, Brigham Young’s adopted son and member of the Danites, John D. Lee Diaries

“In the past decade, potential jurors in every Utah capital homicide were asked whether they believed in the Mormon concept of ‘blood atonement.’”
- Salt Lake Tribune, Nov. 5, 1994, p. D1

“Just last month, attorneys for condemned child-killer James Edward Wood in Pocatello, Idaho, argued that his defense was undermined by a visit from local [Mormon] church leaders who talked to him about shedding his own blood....
“His [Wood’s] attorneys contend Wood is a victim of a Mormon belief in ‘blood atonement.’ ... Judge Lynn Winmill... heard hours of testimony during the past week about Mormon doctrine on apostasy and forgiveness of sin. Wood’s lawyers even asked the bishop who presided over the church court that excommunicated Wood about secret temple rituals involving symbolic throat and slashing or disembowelment, but Winmill did not require him to respond.”
- Salt Lake Tribune, Nov. 5, 1994, p. D1, D5

“Accordingly, the doctrine asserts that those who commit certain grievous sins such as murder and covenant-breaking place themselves beyond the atoning blood of Christ, and their only hope for salvation is to have their own blood shed as an atoning sacrifice. In his writings, Joseph Smith only hinted at the doctrine, Brigham Young successively denied and asserted it, Joseph F. Smith ardently defended it, and in more recent years, Hugh B. Brown repudiated it and Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie both have vigorously defended it in principle while staunchly denying that the Church has ever put it into actual practice, whereas most other General Authorities have prudently preferred to remain silent on the subject. It should be noted that the whole notion of blood atonement is so obviously linked to the Mormon literal mind-set that it does not seem to admit of a mitigated, symbolic interpretation and is either accepted or rejected outright, depending on one’s level of literalistic belief.”
- Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, v. 15, no. 3, p. 93

“To whatever extent the preaching on blood atonement may have influenced action, it would have been in relation to Mormon disciplinary action among its own members. In point would be a verbally reported case of a Mr. Johnson in Cedar City who was found guilty of adultery with his step-daughter by a bishop’s court and sentenced to death for atonement of his sin. According to the report of reputable eyewitnesses, judgment was executed with consent of the offender who went to his unconsecrated grave in full confidence of salvation through the shedding of his blood. Such a case, however primitive, is understandable within the means of this doctrine and the emotional extremes of the [Mormon] reformation.”
- Dr. Gustive O. Larson, BYU Professor, Utah Historical Quarterly, Jan. 1958, p. 62, note 39

“From the days of Joseph Smith to the present, wicked and evilly-disposed persons have fabricated false and slanderous stories to the effect that the Church, in the early days of this dispensation, engaged in a practice of blood atonement whereunder the blood of apostates and others was shed by the Church as an atonement for their sins... there is not one historical instance of so-called blood atonement in this dispensation, nor has there been one event or occurrence whatever, of any nature, from which the slightest inference arises that any such practice either existed or was taught....
“But under certain circumstances there are some serious sins for which the cleansing of Christ does not operate, and the law of God is that men must then have their own blood shed to atone for their sins.”
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 92

“Well, if I understand Elder McConkie [in the above quote], he was saying that, although earlier Church leader’s never believed, preached, or practiced blood atonement, we actually do believe in it and would practice it if we had the legal and political power to do so. (Even thought we didn’t when Brigham Young presided over the theocratic territory of Deseret.)”
- Keith Norman, Mormon scholar, Sunstone, Aug. 1990, p. 11

From:
http://www.ils.unc.edu/~unsworth/mormon/bloodatonement.html

[Jeff Head]

There is no victim card, Turtle. I have not once indicated that I am a victim of anything other than people taking issue with my own statements of faith...and that is not victim related, it is only related to me refuting those statements. They, and you, do not know my heart and are in no position to judge me and my relationship with Jesus Christ.

I believe that Jesus Christ knows His own. I believe there are plenty of Christians who are not LDS...millions and millions of them. I also believe that in due time, all of us will be brought, through Christ to a fulmness of truth and as Paul said, to inherit, like Christ, all that the Father hath which will mean we all know the whole truth.

Of course I believe that true Christians whom are sincere in their hearts will be brought to the fulness of the truth as taught by the Church. But I do not condemn them as people or individuals in the least. You, OTOH, believe that the full truth about the Godhead and what life will be like in the eternities will be different.

I am fine with that. In the end, we will see, and if we are both sincere in our love for and acceptance of our Savior, we will respond to Him and do as He bids us when that time comes, whatever it is. I accept that.

In the mean time, in accepting Jesus Christ and His atonement we become Christians and that essential truth can (and should) bind us together...without rancor or contention.

That’s how I live my life. I became LDS back in 1970 when I was in my teen years. I thank God for my southern Baptist upbringing, but I also thank Him for what I have been taught since that has allowed me to view and treat others, even not of my faith, in the way I just decribed.

Do all LDS treat others with true Christian compassion. No. There are millions and the differences in how people feel and act are as diverse as they are within the Baptist or any other large denomination.

But does it mean we can treat one another with respect, compassion, undertsanding, and the love of Christ...and then fight for our fundamental values that we agree upon and that make this nation free. Yes...it most certainly should.

Hope you understand my position better, I do not know any other way to represent it.

[Tennessee Nana]

. ...”the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which, if he should perform in righteousness, he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has” (Words of Joseph Smith, p, 245, capitalization and punctuation corrected)... “the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body as the Savior did, or as God did, or the Gods before them took bodies” (Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382, capitalization and punctuation corrected)

Source: The Holy Ghost, by Joseph Fielding McConkie and Robert L. Millet, p. 9, copyright © 1989 Bookcraft, Inc

[Gaffer]

You mistake me for someone who’d actually go take a look at your #37 and give it consideration. I’m not into your games.

[Godzilla]

1. Do you believe that the Atonement and blood of Jesus Christ saves? Simple question (as you say), yes or no?

Setting up a false yes or no question here Jeff - and you know it. The mormon definition of the atonement is significantly different from that of Christianity. The only thing similar are the words applied. So spell out the differences Jeff - I for one do not accept the mormon definition of the Atonement you have buried within your question. It is evident in the separation of the atonement and blood of Jesus terms.

2. Do you believe Jesus Christ has the power, through His grace and atonement for anyone who accepts His grace and Atonement in their heart as their Lord, master, and Savior? Simple question, yes or no?

Again, Jeff you are hiding mormon definitions within your Christian-sounding question. Power Jeff, define that within the realm of mormonism - I can guarantee that it doesn't fit that of Christianity. Power for what Jeff.

3. Finally, does Christ even have the power, if I, Jeff Head (or anyone else), humbly and sincerely ask Jesus Christ, in prayer in my heart to shower His grace on me, confess myself before Him accepting Him as my Savior and Redeemer, asking that His atonement purify me and cleanse me of sin...I ask you MHG, does He have the power to save even me? Again, simple question, Yes or No?

Again Jeff your terms are full of mormon definitions - not Christian definitions. Your question must be placed in its proper mormon context such as -
ALMA 11:37: “And I say unto you again that he (Jesus) cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.”
MORONI 10:32: “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.”

See, you question has meanings not present within Christianity Jeff.

Jesus can and does save - but on his terms and not those promulgated by mormonism. Putting a false front to mormonism definitions and terms in order to twist and turn to a yes or no answer is not very intellectually honest.

[cva66snipe]

The notion that this nation’s founders were not Christian is a post modern myth. Jefferson and Franklin may have been deists, but if you would take the time to read what they wrote it is much more Christian in worldview than anything we read today.

Oh I see they were Deist Christians then? There is no such thing. Deist DENY the Divinity of Christ. They basically think he was a good man who lived 2000 years ago. Look at a Jefferson Bible and the parts he edited out. Jefferson became such later in life as near as I can tell. Now I ask you would you knowing that Jefferson, Franklin, or Washington were likely Deist vote for them? This is the United States of America and unless ones religious belief is a national security threat like radical Islam you, me, anyone is free to worship as they please or their conscience before GOD dictates.

For a good insight into the founders beliefs all the way back from Columbus too the early 1800's read "The Light and The Glory" based on their letters, speeches, and private notes.

What's wrong people? Those Mormons easier targets than persons you see on TV night after night with the title of Reverend who are openly destroying our nation? So if we base the radical acts of a few fringe Mormons and judge all of them accordingly then should not the same standards apply to judging Baptist by Westboro's actions and Catholics by a minority of their perverted priest?

Every church in existance has it's rights and wrongs. Yours does mine does. Maybe you better check on yours and see who's doing what huh?

[MHGinTN]

In typical MormonISM miisionary trainging style, you did not answer the questions but immediately slithered into asking what you want the discussion to be on rather than the truth about MormonISM and the teaching of your religion. So, for answers to the questions you should have asked, see post #169, and if still confused, see the quoted paragraph regarding 'a Christ'. ... And shame on me for defending The Christ. BTW, Jeff, History shows that several 'christs' arose in the period from 30 AD to 90 AD. Some of those tried to claim born in Jerusalem, 'a voice crying out for repentence', and they were sent from God to redeem the Jews. You can ping me, IF you ever answer truthfully the few questions I posed to you regarding the jesus and god of MormonISM. Satan's most successful lies are 95% true and only 5% lie. Lying by professionally trained liars usually has that signature and or subtle but significant omissions.

[Tennessee Nana]

I became LDS back in 1970 when I was in my teen years.
__________________________________________

Now pay attention Jeff

Back in 1968 when I was in my teens I learnt about the false prophet Joey Smith and his home made false religion, Mormonism and that it was unBiblical and anti-Christianity...

I was warned about the blasphemy and deception of Mormonism...

and so I was fore warned and never fell into that trap...

What happened to you that you were so deceived by the devil ???

[cva66snipe]

I hope your zeal for standing up for the rights of folks to worship as they please, does not, somehow, diminish MY right to say what I wish about what they believe.

I'll tell you this much. You are doing Romney large favors. So what church do you belong too? I bet I could find major theological issues I disagree with.

But ones like you don't get it. You strain at LDS whom politically and on social issues are conservative and ignore other far more in power as far as our government goes religous sects that are destroying this nation. Yea makes perfect sense to me /sarcasm

[cva66snipe]

Look this up. Rev Barry Lynn Hmmmm... Did he get on the ballot in Indiana?

Lady just who do you think is trying to remove the Ten Commandments and prayer from all public venues? Get a clue. This group has far more political clout than LDS ever had and is doing far more damage to our nation.

[Turtlepower]

I, and any other true Christian, are in a position to judge whether your teaching conflicts with the Biblical Jesus Christ... and it does.

You have not presented the official mormon position on the eternal status of Christians, which is standard practice for mormons. You deliberately leave out critical portions of the your organization’s teachings, in order to sugar coat things.

You didn’t state what happens to Christians in the after life who don’t accept what Mormonism teaches, because you obviously don’t want to admit it. Yet, you act so offended when Christians are honest enough to tell you what rejection of the Biblical Christ means to non-believers. You Hypocrite. Have the decency to act like a man, and state what you really believe. Quit hiding behind selected words that don’t address your church’s teaching on the afterlife.

Quit stating that Jesus is “our” savior. Your Jesus is not the same as my Jesus, so I don’t accept your premise that we have much in common. I respect you as a person and have compassion on your soul, but your misusing the term “Christian” is very offensive. Speaking of fundamental values...I cherish Truth and honesty. Those are sorely lacking in Mormons.

[cva66snipe]

You claim that every believer that calls on His name is part of the church. Belief is the key component of that, and what you believe in is critical.

Salvation is simple. Simple enough even for a child if adults don't place their prejudices into it. Salvation requires one with an earnest heart toward GOD excepting salvation {foregiveness of sin} through Jesus Christ. That is what determines it. Not dogma, not doctrines, not theology of a specific church.

So what will send one too hell? The complete and total rejection of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. That is the sin that can not be forgiven. That is having been given the conviction of sin and call too salvation by the Holy Spirit and rejecting it. A persons theological errors {which all churches have} do not supersede the Power of Jesus Christ nor does anyones church.

My discernment is fine. It's focused on LORD, SAVIOR, CROSS, and Forgiveness, of sin which I did not earn. I'd rather break bread with a humble before GOD Mormon than a pious condemning {name church sect} anyday.

I believe the Power and the Blood of Jesus Christ for those whom believe covers the MANY, MANY, upon Many, theological short comings of man.