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China 'hiding up to 3,000 nuclear warheads in secret tunnels'
The Telegraph ^ | 9:23AM GMT 01 Dec 2011

Posted on 12/01/2011 2:21:24 PM PST by Red Steel

An unconventional project by US university students has concluded that China's nuclear arsenal could be many times larger than current estimates, drawing the attention of Pentagon analysts.

The Washington Post reported on Tuesday that Georgetown University students under the instruction of a former Pentagon official have assembled the largest body of public knowledge yet about a vast network of secret tunnels dug by China's secretive Second Artillery Corps, responsible for nuclear warheads.

The 363-page study has not yet been published, but has already sparked a congressional hearing and been circulated among top US defence officials, including the Air Force vice chief of staff, the Post reported.

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Government
KEYWORDS: china; chinanukes; chinatunnel; economy; iahcftpwbaa; inflation; iran; nuclear; nukewarheads; oil
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1 posted on 12/01/2011 2:21:34 PM PST by Red Steel
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To: Red Steel

Would China use them to do a Black flag op?


2 posted on 12/01/2011 2:23:52 PM PST by battlecry
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To: battlecry

>> Would China use them to do a Black flag op?

Wouldn’t put anything past ‘em.

On the other hand — would you sneak into the house of a neighbor who owed you thirty thousand dollars and shoot him and frame someone else?

We owe china about a hundred million times that much, don’t we? I think we’re fairly safe for now. :-)


3 posted on 12/01/2011 2:43:41 PM PST by Nervous Tick (Trust in God, but row away from the rocks!)
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To: Red Steel

And we’re worrying about Iran getting 1. China is our existential threat.


4 posted on 12/01/2011 2:56:12 PM PST by ex-snook ("above all things, truth beareth away the victory")
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To: Red Steel

If this is true, it will be the confirmation I was waiting for.

While we sliced and diced our arsenal, our troop levels, our aircraft orders, our fleet, our overall military preparedness, I knew a day would come when our officials would state that “UNEXPECTEDLY” China had either matched us or surpassed us in a number of military preparedness areas.

We are playing the same game we did between WWI and WWII. Our leaders are convinced that we are so strong that nobody will challenge us. And you know what, they wouldn’t change that mindset until someone does, and kills off tens if not hundreds of thousands of our troops and population. Pray to God it won’t be millions or tens of millions.

We are turning into a blind spineless nation, that would rather hide it’s head under it’s wing, than allow it’s Bald Eagle to menace any and all enemies of our nation.

If this doesn’t play out to be serious proof, just be patient. It will come in time.

Slumber on leaders...


5 posted on 12/01/2011 3:00:09 PM PST by DoughtyOne (Romney, Newt, any chance whatsoever you might sometime pander to U.S. Citizens vs the illegals?)
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So with one hand China was shaking Nixon’s while the other was digging a tunnel in which to store its nuclear bombs.

Nixon was a fool.


6 posted on 12/01/2011 3:09:23 PM PST by RC51
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To: Nervous Tick
We owe china about a hundred million times that much, don’t we? I think we’re fairly safe for now. :-)

a) Only until a chance remains that the debt will be repaid.

b) There are other ways to pay the debt. How much would it be worth to China to completely remove the USA from the world scene? Would the new leader of the world find ways to recoup the loss?

But we are relatively safe for now, with regard to (b). The EU and the USA are already doing everything in their power to defeat themselves. China only has to wait. EU may fall in 2012 on its own; if China throws any cash into the hat it will come with very serious strings attached. (The worst of all, this cash will be in form of US debt, which nominally has value but realistically is empty promises. This means that the USA will buy Europe for China.)

7 posted on 12/01/2011 3:12:39 PM PST by Greysard
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To: Red Steel
What surprised me about this report is the current estimate of 80 to 400 warheads. I can't believe they could have survived the Russian bear through the cold war decades with a deterrent force this small.
8 posted on 12/01/2011 3:13:05 PM PST by Tail Gunner John
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To: Red Steel

Yet another confirmation of information brought to us by our soldiers in Vietnam a long time ago. They saw gigantic underground warehouses of Chinese-produced copies of our supplies. Others saw attacks by large, regular North Vietnamese Army forces aided by sappers and others from China.


9 posted on 12/01/2011 3:29:20 PM PST by familyop ("Don't worry, they'll row for a month before they figure out I'm fakin' it." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
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To: DoughtyOne

What are you talking about? Defense spending has goon up 15% since 2008.


10 posted on 12/01/2011 3:32:42 PM PST by MontaniSemperLiberi (Moutaineers are Always Free)
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To: Nervous Tick

Well, what if your neighbor wasn’t paying you back and borrowing more money by saying he will use it to be productive. Then he blows that money on gambling and keeping his friends rich each time you lend.

Eventually you’ll say enough and seek other forms of payment. Things like property and forced labor.


11 posted on 12/01/2011 4:20:12 PM PST by varyouga
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To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; ColdOne; Convert from ECUSA; ...

Thanks Red Steel. Kaboom, Kaboom, yadadadadadadadadadada... Britain under attack (again): Doublin' Down, Uppin' Antes: Wag the Dog: Candidates: Birds of a feather: op-eds: miscellaneous:
12 posted on 12/01/2011 4:43:19 PM PST by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Tail Gunner John
Glad to have fellow "paranoids" here--people have been looking askance at me for three decades now. I'm 50.

I have LONG doubted the reports that China's only got "a few hundred" nuclear warheads. That said that in the 1970s, 80's, 90's...through today.

Don't take MY word for it. Use your own rational mind. Let's start by examining the facts and history of the Atomic Age.

Stop and think: The USA developed the atom bomb. It wasn't long before the Soviet Union also managed the feat.

The USA then developed the H-bomb. The USSR followed suit with their own H-bomb with less of an interval than with the A-bomb. The developmental gap in time had narrowed.

While we were developing ICBM, SLBM, then MIRVing and MARVing technology, with the Russians following suit, China tested its first A-bomb, and later, an H-bomb.

What is important is that the USA didn't know the Atom Bomb would work. UFO's didn't give us the technology. We developed it from scratch, not even knowing it would ever work.

At least the Russians knew the tech tree would ultimately yield fruit.

The technological tree for the Chinese was even easier to climb: Pirating both Russian and US tech, they narrowed the interval even more significantly.

While the USA watched, counted, and signed arms limitation treaties with the Soviet Union, the Chinese arsenal was never taken into account.

Certainly, from the viewpoint of the USSR, it HAD to be: Probably the reason why they needed so many IRBMs, mobile IRBMs, IRBMs that could be moved into Eastern Europe, or quickly repositioned in Asia to defend against/threaten the Chinese.

It's notable that the USSR had been sharing technological expertise with their communist bretheren, but ultimately almost came to blows along the Amur/Ussuri in 1969. The internationalist love affair had ended.

NOW, HERE'S THE MAIN POINT:

The USA got the A-bomb in 1945. By 1975, it had the H-bomb, reliable ICBMs, moon travel, and (I think) MIRVs.

The USSR, by 1975, had the A-bomb, H-bomb, reliable ICBMs that were capable of launching heavier "throw weights" than the USA, and were relying on those heavier warheads in lieu of MIRVs.

China had the A-bomb. And the H-bomb.

A notable fact, one that jumps out and cries for notice, is that the USA took 7 years to develop an H-bomb, 9 to deploy it. The USSR did it in 6 years.

China developed an H-bomb in a mere 3 years after obtaining the A-bomb!

It took the USA from 1945 to 1966 to construct 33,000 warheads. (21 years)

The Soviet Union took from 1949 to 1988 to construct 45,000 warheads. (38 years)

Afterwards, both sides were so busy with "stockpile maintenance" that they were happy to reduce their respective arsenals down to their current levels: About 8.500 for the USA, and about 11,000 for the Russians.

But what about China?

This is the question I've always asked since I was a kid in high school in the 70's.

Oh, I'm told, China's got between 200 and 400 weapons.

That's in 2011.

But I'm a middle-aged man, now. But I'm also a man with a long memory.

They were telling me back in 1977 that China probably had 200-300 weapons, barely able to hit European Russia, soon to be able to hit our West Coast.

I've been paying attention. China's got that manned orbital space thing down pretty good. Thanks, Loral, thanks Clinton, thanks Russia. Thanks, American and Western universities. We've been cutting our own throats for decades, imperiling the lives of our children.

My point is this: YOU CAN'T EXPECT ME TO BELIEVE THAT CHINA, AFTER 47 YEARS, DOES NOT HAVE ICBMS ABLE TO HIT EVERY CORNER OF THE WORLD, AND YOU ALSO CAN'T CONVINCE ME THAT THEIR ARSENAL IS THE SAME--LOW HUNDREDS--THAT WAS STATED IN THE LATE 1970'S.

Remember, they didn't have to invent the tech.

Their progression has been much faster than ours.

I have long suspected their arsenal now DWARFS ours.

Obama has called our ICBMs "the President's weapons." (Google it.)

Obama has stated that it is his goal to reduce the American arsenal down to the 3000 range, and from there, to the "high hundreds." This would WELCOME a decapitating first strike.

You can get up from Pearl Harbor.

But there will be no getting up to fight again after a nuclear Pearl Harbor. Order of magnitude different.

China's had more than enough time to develop tens of thousands of weapons, while we reduce down to the hundreds.

This is national SUICIDE.

Also, I've read that university report (a PowerPoint). It's scary as hell. The Chinese have built 3,000 miles of tunnel.

Again, the Chinese have built 3,000 miles of tunnel.

Still don't get it? THINK about it. What's the cost to bore through rock?

How many meters of tunnel PER warhead? They're using mobile launchers...they hope to launch, reload, rinse and repeat. They're also IMPOSSIBLE to count and verify.

This makes China invulnerable to a first strike, and puts them in a great position to blackmail us later, as we have fixed silos in known locations. We don't use road-mobile ICBMs. Only our SLBMs give us some security, to be honest, and the Navy's going to cut scale back our boomers in size to about 2/3 of their current size.

Again, hiding our head in the sand is national SUICIDE. Let's not be a part of it. Let's oppose this on any forum on which we are able!

Sauron (Because I give a fracking damn!)

13 posted on 12/01/2011 4:48:46 PM PST by sauron ("Truth is hate to those who hate Truth" --unknown)
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To: Tail Gunner John
Glad to have fellow "paranoids" here--people have been looking askance at me for three decades now. I'm 50.

I have LONG doubted the reports that China's only got "a few hundred" nuclear warheads. That said that in the 1970s, 80's, 90's...through today.

Don't take MY word for it. Use your own rational mind. Let's start by examining the facts and history of the Atomic Age.

Stop and think: The USA developed the atom bomb. It wasn't long before the Soviet Union also managed the feat.

The USA then developed the H-bomb. The USSR followed suit with their own H-bomb with less of an interval than with the A-bomb. The developmental gap in time had narrowed.

While we were developing ICBM, SLBM, then MIRVing and MARVing technology, with the Russians following suit, China tested its first A-bomb, and later, an H-bomb.

What is important is that the USA didn't know the Atom Bomb would work. UFO's didn't give us the technology. We developed it from scratch, not even knowing it would ever work.

At least the Russians knew the tech tree would ultimately yield fruit.

The technological tree for the Chinese was even easier to climb: Pirating both Russian and US tech, they narrowed the interval even more significantly.

While the USA watched, counted, and signed arms limitation treaties with the Soviet Union, the Chinese arsenal was never taken into account.

Certainly, from the viewpoint of the USSR, it HAD to be: Probably the reason why they needed so many IRBMs, mobile IRBMs, IRBMs that could be moved into Eastern Europe, or quickly repositioned in Asia to defend against/threaten the Chinese.

It's notable that the USSR had been sharing technological expertise with their communist bretheren, but ultimately almost came to blows along the Amur/Ussuri in 1969. The internationalist love affair had ended.

NOW, HERE'S THE MAIN POINT:

The USA got the A-bomb in 1945. By 1975, it had the H-bomb, reliable ICBMs, moon travel, and (I think) MIRVs.

The USSR, by 1975, had the A-bomb, H-bomb, reliable ICBMs that were capable of launching heavier "throw weights" than the USA, and were relying on those heavier warheads in lieu of MIRVs.

China had the A-bomb. And the H-bomb.

A notable fact, one that jumps out and cries for notice, is that the USA took 7 years to develop an H-bomb, 9 to deploy it. The USSR did it in 6 years.

China developed an H-bomb in a mere 3 years after obtaining the A-bomb!

It took the USA from 1945 to 1966 to construct 33,000 warheads. (21 years)

The Soviet Union took from 1949 to 1988 to construct 45,000 warheads. (38 years)

Afterwards, both sides were so busy with "stockpile maintenance" that they were happy to reduce their respective arsenals down to their current levels: About 8.500 for the USA, and about 11,000 for the Russians.

But what about China?

This is the question I've always asked since I was a kid in high school in the 70's.

Oh, I'm told, China's got between 200 and 400 weapons.

That's in 2011.

But I'm a middle-aged man, now. But I'm also a man with a long memory.

They were telling me back in 1977 that China probably had 200-300 weapons, barely able to hit European Russia, soon to be able to hit our West Coast.

I've been paying attention. China's got that manned orbital space thing down pretty good. Thanks, Loral, thanks Clinton, thanks Russia. Thanks, American and Western universities. We've been cutting our own throats for decades, imperiling the lives of our children.

My point is this: YOU CAN'T EXPECT ME TO BELIEVE THAT CHINA, AFTER 47 YEARS, DOES NOT HAVE ICBMS ABLE TO HIT EVERY CORNER OF THE WORLD, AND YOU ALSO CAN'T CONVINCE ME THAT THEIR ARSENAL IS THE SAME--LOW HUNDREDS--THAT WAS STATED IN THE LATE 1970'S.

Remember, they didn't have to invent the tech.

Their progression has been much faster than ours.

I have long suspected their arsenal now DWARFS ours.

Obama has called our ICBMs "the President's weapons." (Google it.)

Obama has stated that it is his goal to reduce the American arsenal down to the 3000 range, and from there, to the "high hundreds." This would WELCOME a decapitating first strike.

You can get up from Pearl Harbor.

But there will be no getting up to fight again after a nuclear Pearl Harbor. Order of magnitude different.

China's had more than enough time to develop tens of thousands of weapons, while we reduce down to the hundreds.

This is national SUICIDE.

Also, I've read that university report (a PowerPoint). It's scary as hell. The Chinese have built 3,000 miles of tunnel.

Again, the Chinese have built 3,000 miles of tunnel.

Still don't get it? THINK about it. What's the cost to bore through rock?

How many meters of tunnel PER warhead? They're using mobile launchers...they hope to launch, reload, rinse and repeat. They're also IMPOSSIBLE to count and verify.

This makes China invulnerable to a first strike, and puts them in a great position to blackmail us later, as we have fixed silos in known locations. We don't use road-mobile ICBMs. Only our SLBMs give us some security, to be honest, and the Navy's going to cut scale back our boomers in size to about 2/3 of their current size.

Again, hiding our head in the sand is national SUICIDE. Let's not be a part of it. Let's oppose this on any forum on which we are able!

Sauron (Because I give a fracking damn!)

14 posted on 12/01/2011 4:48:56 PM PST by sauron ("Truth is hate to those who hate Truth" --unknown)
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To: RC51

Nixon was a self serving person and this carried into his politics. Look at all the government that Nixon eg. EPA approved with intentions of keeping environmentalists off his back.


15 posted on 12/01/2011 4:53:12 PM PST by noinfringers2
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To: sauron
Apologies for that double-post. ;)

I would add that, no matter where you estimate Chinese development to be: slower than ours (because we're so much smarter), on par with ours (we're all human, equal), or faster than ours (hey, Russia/USA shared its tech with us) then you should expect China to have tens of thousands of warheads.

In other words, follow the same course Russia and America did.

It's dangerously wishful thinking to assume anything other than that.

And if the Chinese are unhappy with our worst-case assumption, then, invite our inspectors over for a verification party.

Trust, but verify. (Reagan: from a Russian proverb)

16 posted on 12/01/2011 4:57:35 PM PST by sauron ("Truth is hate to those who hate Truth" --unknown)
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To: Red Steel

Another China is Superman article. If these ChiComm apes built a tunnel, I would never want to stand under it.

Wake me up when these 30 IQ morons figure out how to anneal a bolt. BTW, did the ChiComms fill that crater in their aircraft carrier with Quikrete cement, on sale at Loews for $5.99, or bubblegum?


17 posted on 12/01/2011 5:00:24 PM PST by sergeantdave
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To: sergeantdave
You under-estimate the ChiComs at your own peril.
They buy, borrow, steal or copy the technology they require.
Doubt it? Look at the current PRC/PLA space technology. Don't forget, this is a culture that places a low value on human guinea pigs and regards time in a different manner than the West.

The PRC/PLA mil tech groups do not have OSHA standards or union strikes.
18 posted on 12/01/2011 5:35:26 PM PST by Tainan (Cogito, ergo conservatus sum)
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To: Tainan

“You under-estimate the ChiComs at your own peril.”

I don’t underestimate squat, my FRiend.

I worked with the Chinese students during Tiananmen Square. The students were wonderful and smart, and their ChiComm handlers were drolling dopes. We set up safehouses for these students in case that asshole Bush Sr. decided to cave in and send the students back to China to be murdered.

That simple act of amnesty by countless Americans forged a genuine friendship with many Chinese that still pays off today and into the future.

If you think the “brilliant,” drooling ChiComm apes can anneal a bolt, tell me where I can buy one box.


19 posted on 12/01/2011 6:03:52 PM PST by sergeantdave
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To: Greysard

>> China only has to wait.

China is a mess (economically and socio-politically) of a different sort than the US or the Eurozone. They are *not* a shoo-in for superpower status — economically or militarily.


20 posted on 12/01/2011 6:12:15 PM PST by Nervous Tick (Trust in God, but row away from the rocks!)
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