Posted on 11/08/2011 9:26:42 AM PST by surroundedbyblue
In the Carpenter home, every meal begins with a prayer. Robin and his wife, Emily, are devout Christians. But they part ways with many other Christians over a measure that would expand the legal definition of human life.
Their son, Luke, now 4 years old, was born through in vitro fertilization.
The anti-abortion amendment being voted on this week in the state could restrict in vitro procedures, and the Carpenters are worried that if they wait too long to add to their family, they may end up breaking the law.
"I don't really want or need anybody else getting involved in trying to limit how that works for us, or stopping it," said Robin Carpenter. "We need to have the same rights to have a family as anybody else does."
(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...
Moreover, NOBODY at that time ever imagined conception occurring outside the womb.
Remember that there were women in the Bible (notably Sara and Elizabeth) who were thought to be barren, but they continued to serve the Lord faithfully and were rewarded with sons.
It's actually the same with birth-control pills. One of the ways they prevent conception is by hormonally changing the uterine-lining to prevent implantation of the fertilized egg.
That's abortion and, IMO, is the main reason that Christian America has been unable to rid itself of this abortion mentality. Too many 'devout', 'pro-life', Christian women sitting in church every Sunday silently aborting their children through their use of birth-control pills.
Think the accuser doesn't bring that up before the throne of God?
If it’s true that the definition has been changed recently, then I will not recognize it.
If the whole purpose is to allow for abortion, it’s not a legitimate change, IMO.
fertilization = conception
Actually, in Genesis 3:15 there’s an indication that a woman having seed was recognized.
The Hebrew word there could easily be translated *seed*.
Different versions use different words. It’s either *offspring*, *descendents*, or *seed*. *Seed* is actually the word of choice for translation and seems to be the closest to the meaning of the Hebrew.
Genesis 3:15
http://bible.cc/genesis/3-15.htm
Strong’s Concordance
http://concordances.org/hebrew/2233.htm
Or, as seems to be usual in God’s economy, all of the above could be correct.
If a scientist creates life, God allowed it under HIS plan. If a rapist creates life through an illegal act, no matter how vile, God directed that. I may get flamed, but I think Nazi Germany was a part of God's plans for a higher level of development. Every bad thing, such as the Obama administration, is of God's plan for development. We do not know light without dark...we do not know day without night, etc, etc...
On a personal note, so you know where I am coming from, I have a child that was born 15 years ago and the first words my wife and I had to hear from the hospital staff was that he may not live through the night. Well, he did because of the grace of God presented a talented surgeon who tried out a little known cardio procedure to save him. Today, 15 years later he is active, healthy and damned annoying at times. And the surgeon who saved him? 5 years ago he passed away at a young age of cancer. It is God's world...let him decide who is a "Being".
One of my grandchildren was conceived via collection of dads sperm and conceived in an IVf by a doctor and then immediately planted into the woman...our family has been blessed by this child, in the military and loved dearly by everyone.
The idea of personhood at conception will outlaw most contraception. A pregnancy starts at implantation, not fertilization...women miscarry every day, did God cause their abortion. Abortion is a medical word, miscarry is the layman term...Spontaneous abort is a miscarry...why would your god cause a woman to abort...if an abort is threatened (as opposed to a therapeutic abort) should doctors try to stop the threatened abort? Would they then be interfering with gods idea to abort the pregnancy. Perhaps we should stop all vaccines as it was not given the OK in Genesis...
I am just glad your not the one making laws so that you can feel righteous about your opinion...and force those that want children and have difficulty conceiving from seeking recourse to advances made in the last 2000 years..
As I have stated on other threads, the idea of personhood at conception and an outlaw of all forms of contraception is direct catholic dogma. Abortion should not be allowed except in the very rare case of threat to a womans health..It is a rare occasion, but happens. The other legit reason for an abortion is when the fetus dies before birth and should be removed.
Those that believe in strich personhood, what are their thoughts about barrier methods of contraception, via diaphram or condom...if those are to be outlawed also, you can bet the movement is 100% catholic dogma..
“Your right is true, also the right of those that have conceived via IVF have a right to their opinion.
One of my grandchildren was conceived via collection of dads sperm and conceived in an IVf by a doctor and then immediately planted into the woman...our family has been blessed by this child, in the military and loved dearly by everyone.”
That’s wonderful. I believe children conceived in rape, adultery and incest are wonderful too. But just because God can bring something good out of something bad doesn’t mean I am obligated to approve of IVF anymore than I am required to approve of rape, adultery or incest either.
“I am just glad your not the one making laws so that you can feel righteous about your opinion...and force those that want children and have difficulty conceiving from seeking recourse to advances made in the last 2000 years..”
Boo hoo. Oh boo hoo. Cry me a river. Boo hoo.
Having a child is a privilege bestowed by God as He(not your or I) sees fit. It’s not a “right” or an “entitlement” bestowed by the government. Besides, there are countless children that already exist in this world who need parents. Adoption is a beautiful thing for infertile couples.
“As I have stated on other threads, the idea of personhood at conception and an outlaw of all forms of contraception is direct catholic dogma. Abortion should not be allowed except in the very rare case of threat to a womans health..It is a rare occasion, but happens. The other legit reason for an abortion is when the fetus dies before birth and should be removed.
“Those that believe in strich personhood, what are their thoughts about barrier methods of contraception, via diaphram or condom...if those are to be outlawed also, you can bet the movement is 100% catholic dogma.. “
You’re right about it being 100% catholic dogma. And this is one issue where I as a Protestant think the Roman Catholic Church is correct on. In fact, the majority of Protestantism held to the same opinion as the RCC until around 1930.
I mentioned nothing about rape, incest or adultery so your remarks on that are irreverent...boo hoo on you also...:O).
you wrote: But just because God can bring something good out of something bad doesnt mean I am obligated to approve of IVF anymore than I am required to approve of rape, adultery or incest either.***
I never said you were obligated to believe anything, so that remark is not pertinent to what I said.
Those that don't believe as you do should not have legislation to enforce your beliefs...That is the same attitude that brought about Roe v Wade and is just as disgusting to many...to each his own...live your little life according to your beliefs. No one is stopping you..Your the one that wants no contraception for anyone. Opposite side of the same Roe coin...enforce by government your beliefs on others. Use contraception = kill a child...rather radical...
I was a Lutheran long before I became a catholic, never heard the silliness you spout about Protestants beliefs in all my times at church...wasn't even on the radar and that would be during the 50's....
“I mentioned nothing about rape, incest or adultery so your remarks on that are irreverent.”
Irreverent? I’m not required to revere IVF, rape, adultery or incest.
“I was a Lutheran long before I became a catholic, never heard the silliness you spout about Protestants beliefs in all my times at church...wasn’t even on the radar and that would be during the 50’s....”
Which only means your Lutheran and Roman Catholic priests failed to instruct you properly. Either that or you never paid attention.
Ah yes, you are the only one right, and arrogant enough to state it...and spell check was not my friend on this (irreverent), to think so highly of your own opinion as to state its better than pastors or priests is a big sign of pride in your own mind....LOL satan had the same though..LOL again
It’s not pride in my opinion. I’m just stating an objective fact: Protestantism held the same view of birth control as Roman Catholicism until the Anglican Lambeth Conference of 1930. This thread discusses it:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2613278/posts
If your clergymen were unaware of this historical fact they wouldn’t have informed you of this. But as someone once said, you’re entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.
Also, I fail to see how it’s of Satan to not want innocent babies murdered and to have respect for fellow humans created in the image of God and to want their lives protected from conception until natural death. Sounds like Christ’s position to me whether you or I agree with it or not.
P.S. Another link backing up the facts about the historical Protestant view of birth control:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2531431/posts
Thanks for the links but just because you think they are important doesn’t mean I am interested. Or for that matter is anything else you have to say...sorry, but just boring.. pleasant dreams....
You are mistaken to think in medical terms conception and fertilization are synonymous,
I don't. See #20 & 25.
You yourself refer to the "conception" of your grandchild. I presume you meant, technically, the fertilization process that created him.
The Equal Protection for Posterity Resolution
A Resolution affirming vital existing constitutional protections for the unalienable right to life of every innocent person, from the first moment of creation until natural death.
WHEREAS, The first stated principle of the United States, in its charter, the Declaration of Independence, is the assertion of the self-evident truth that all men are created equal, and that they are each endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, beginning with the right to life, and that the first purpose of all government is to defend that supreme right; and
WHEREAS, The first stated purposes of We the People of the United States in our Constitution are to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity; and
WHEREAS, The United States Constitution, in the Fourteenth Amendment, imperatively requires that all persons within the jurisdictions of all the States be afforded the equal protection of the laws; and
WHEREAS, The United States Constitution, in the Fifth and the Fourteenth Amendments, explicitly forbids the taking of the life of any innocent person; and
WHEREAS, The practices of abortion and euthanasia violate every clause of the stated purposes of the United States Constitution, and its explicit provisions; and
WHEREAS, Modern science has demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that the individual human persons physical existence begins at the moment of biological inception or creation; and
WHEREAS, All executive, legislative and judicial Officers in America, at every level and in every branch, have sworn before God to support the United States Constitution as required by Article VI of that document, and have therefore, because the Constitution explicitly requires it, sworn to protect the life of every innocent person;
THEREFORE, WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES HEREBY RESOLVE that the God-given, unalienable right to life of every innocent person, from biological inception or creation to natural death, be protected everywhere within every state, territory and jurisdiction of the United States of America; that every officer of the judicial, legislative and executive departments, at every level and in every branch, is required to use all lawful means to protect every innocent life within their jurisdictions; and that we will henceforth deem failure to carry out this supreme sworn duty to be cause for removal from public office via impeachment or recall, or by statutory or electoral means, notwithstanding any law passed by any legislative body within the United States, or the decision of any court, or the decree of any executive officer, at any level of governance, to the contrary.
http://www.equalprotectionforposterity.com/index.html
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