Posted on 06/08/2011 6:02:16 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
The Shroud of Turin was made by medieval artist Giotto, it was claimed yesterday.
The 14ft length of fabric, said to be the burial cloth of Christ, bears a faint image of a man and appears to be stained by blood.
However carbon-dating tests have suggested it was produced between 1260 and 1390.
Now Italian art expert Luciano Buso has suggested that the original cloth deteriorated and Giotto was asked to make a copy.
After months of careful examination of photographs of the Shroud - the relic is kept locked away and not available to be viewed unless on special occasions - Luciano Buso has come up with an idea worthy of a Da Vinci Code thriller.
He says that several veiled appearances of the number 15, hidden in the fabric by the artist, indicate Giotto created the Shroud in 1315 - and that it is a copy of the original which had been damaged and was then lost over the centuries. Giotto was perhaps the best known artist of his time and was made famous for his decoration of the Scrovegni Chapel in Padua, the fresco that depicts the life of the Virgin Mary and Christ. Mr Buso insists that 700 years ago it was common practice for artists to insert partial dates into their works so as to guarantee their authenticity and it was known only to a handful of people so as to avoid forgeries. His claims, which form part of a new book he has written, would coincide with 1980's carbon dating - which has been dismissed by the Church - and which puts the Shroud's origins in the early 14th century.
(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...
i simply was pointing out, the massive attack by the left on Christianity, while they ignore the insanity of Islam.
i am simply tired, of the constant attack on my faith, by liberals, atheists, and even other Christians.
I believe Jesus is the son of God, and died for our sins. I am tired of even my brother Christians, telling me they know what God is, or isn’t, capable of.
Cherry picking your quotes and ignoring the rest dont look good
The veneration of any man made object with the intent it supposedly magnifies your faith is idolatry.
While the relic, the shroud, pretends to be Jesus burial cloth, it ignores Biblical truth, jesus had a cloth covering around is head, and this shroud shows a mans head, and that is against what Scripture speaks of
The veneration of the shroud is idolatry, pure and plain
///
as i said before, you were one of my heros, before i signed up on FR, after reading your posts about Obama.
...but, there is NO proof that this is a man-made object. that is the point here !!!
there IS evidence that it could NOT have been made man.
yes, the Bible says there WAS an additional facial cloth. but remember when Lazarus came out ? THAT is how Jews were buried !
...i have things from my dead Dad. i don’t worship them. and i don’t see why you need to attack something, that might actually have been left for us, by Jesus himself !
you of all people here, i would expect to have a more open mind.
And yet no one has ever been able to reproduce a similar fake - why not if it’s a fake?
It’s real and it’s spectacular!
Racebannon posted:
“Now that the 1988 radiocarbon dating of the shroud has been proven to be scientifically invalid, “
yet Swordmaker and others above, have CLEARLY shown, that the 1988 test ITSELF has been proven flawed.
(and, it is amazingly hypocritical, that the same Christians who trash carbon dating, to prove the world was created in 6006 BC, will USE it, to attack Catholics.)
- - -
flowerplough wrote: “ancient relicy Catholic stuff”
///
i’ve greatly admired your posts, on many many subjects.
i believe we both admire Sarah Palin, who is a true Christian, who i admire very much !!!
(unlike the “christian” in the W.H., who 40 years after leaving the Indonesian muslim school, can STILL recite the “call to prayer” perfectly, with a flawless accent, according to TIME. ...but you said it much better than me:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2729308/posts?page=8#8 )
...but respectfully, some here have actually studied the research on the Shroud of Jesus, and they certainly wouldn’t dismiss your faith so cavalierly...
and if you have honest scientific points, then make them. but there is no need to insult or disparage, or dismiss without honestly investigating.
Do you believe it is IMPOSSIBLE that the shroud is real???
and, if it is real, it is real for ALL Christians.
ALL Christians, believe Jesus rose from the dead.
Why couldn’t he have left his burial cloth behind, to give faith to the “Doubting Thomas” who need a extra?
Jesus LOVED Thomas ! he didn’t cast him out for disbelief!
(but, he did say blessed are those who believe, without seeing...)
The Shroud might be real, for ALL Christians !!!
Catholics don’t condemn other Christians. they call the brothers.
(yet i have been SHOCKED AND APPALLED, at the many attacks on Catholics, i have already seen here on FR. ...just as my son has come home in tears more than once, from attacks by his “Christian” classmates.)
...and i have already agreed, most relics are fakes!!!
and the Catholic church has made many mistakes.
(and i was raised a Southern Baptist...)
but, Corinthians and Acts, speak strongly on the important of NOT splitting the one true church, to make a church of Timothy, or Titus...
i love to read Ephesians, about a man should love his wife, as Jesus loves his one true church.
Jesus promised he would NEVER leave us or forsake us.
...so i cannot believe, that Jesus would break that promise, and leave us, for 1400 or 1800 years, until he sent Joseph Smith or Martin Luther to save us.
i’ve read about both in detail.
and while i believe there are MANY Mormons, and MANY Protestants, who are better, more Christian people, than a sinner like me... i admire MANY of their followers. but, i don’t believe Smith or Luther are better than me.
(have you read Luther in his original German? if not, these quotes, directly from him, are fairly accurate:
http://articles.exchristian.net/2002/04/martin-luther-quotes.php
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/luther.htm
...again, i respect the faith of ANY person who calls Jesus the son of God, and our savior.
and again, if the shroud is real,
it is for ALL of us!!!!!!!!!
so why not at least give it a fair chance, unlike atheists like Dawkins, or the people who pushed the lies of “The Divinci Code” on unsuspecting millions?
I could link to some of your posts in other threads on this topic, if you'd like.
Cheers!
Have you considered the idea of getting a good dictionary of New Testament Greek and looking up what words were used to describe the burial cloths? Translations can be, and have been, squirrely -- as when Michelangelo used a poor translation to guide him in creating a statue of Moses which had horns growing out of its forehead.
Also, have you considered it as a bit of history, rather than something "venerated"? The reason people are *so* taken with it, is the usualy "In Search Of..." debunking techniques HAVEN'T worked, and there are numerous features consistent with its authenticity, which even today cannot be duplicated.
Cheers!
this was a great “scientific inquiry” thread!
then others felt they had to attack “Catholic idolatry”.
...instead of discussing the SCIENCE.
Thereby joining the attacks by atheists, who we know have falsified science before. (like the “Global Warming” hoax.).
and i didn’t mention religion at all, until after those attacks.
.Warning issued that Islam is coming.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2732230/posts
my son’s Bible school classmates, don’t know he is Catholic. he is often in tears, because of the vicious anti-Catholic remarks. do they attack Muslims ? No!
WHY?
my son joyously recieved Jesus at his 1st Communion, at the Papal Mass in Washington DC.
...afterward, we ran the qauntlet, of hordes of Protestants, with MEGAPHONES and giant signs, saying that ALL Catholics were going to Hell. That the Pope was the “anti-Christ”. (a teaching of Luther himself...)
Do they stand outside Islamic Masjids with megaphones? No!
WHY?
On FreeRepublic, MOST of my comments are on the evils of Islam, and the AGW Hoax. yet there are MANY anti-Catholic remarks.
...last week, on a thread, a World Leader, speaking about the “2-state” solution in the middle east, was viciously attacked. He said the same EXACT thing, as Condi Rice, Bush, and even Netanyahu himself. he was attacked, simply because he was the POPE.
...the same man that has spoken up for Christians (of ALL types), around the world being killed by Muslims, more than ANY other World, or Church, leader.
...Protestants are WONDERFUL Bible scholars. fact.
Jesus himself warned against false teachers, and false prophets, like Muhammad(pbuh).
i respectfully challenge you, to read Luther’s -OWN- words,
and tell me WHO sent him?
http://articles.exchristian.net/2002/04/martin-luther-quotes.php
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/luther.htm
Even now, i only criticise Luther himself, NOT Protestants. i have already said most are better Christians than me.
...but even on FR, the Universal church is attacked by people who don’t breathe a word about the daily evils of Islam.
WHY?
...FR is the ONE place, i didn’t expect this!
Most Baptists are better Bible scholars than me, but, i think the Bible clearly says why...
an opinion i keep to myself, except when others attack MY faith, after i have respected theirs.
Even Islam, i gave the benefit of the doubt to. i read their OWN literature. Quran, ahadith, the Sira. i went INSIDE a masjid, to learn the truth. Only THEN i spoke out against it.
(Just as I researched Luther first, in his OWN words.)
i think all Christians need to be united, and NOT attack each other.
Jesus himself rebukes his own Diciples for trying to stop others preaching in HIS name!!!
and especially with the incredibly rapid spread of Islam, we need Christian unity now more than ever !
and again, i admit the shroud MIGHT be a fake!
...but IF it is real, it is for ALL Christian brothers and sisters. We are ALL children of our Father, as Jesus himself made us !!!
The shroud is now and always has been a hoax to increase the take at the time for offering
And that guy didn't? I just did not have time to do a complete presentation which I have done BEFORE... and you were included on it then as well... including the original Greek and proper translations of the Greek words. The scholarship is solid. Jewish burial, which Joseph of Arimathea used, according to scripture, has been studied in depth, and is much richer than can be covered by a few sentences in the Scriptures... but can be covered by the phrase used. The author of the scriptures understood what he meant and assumed the readers would as well. . . several Bible translations today cite Joseph as buying a fine Linen sindon, a shroud, the same thing he would use to bury a member of his own family.
Is that why the family of Geoffrey de Charney bankrupted themselves supporting the Chapel at Lirey France that housed the Shroud they owned and refused to accept the offerings of the pilgrims who came to worship there? Thanks for trolling about something you know nothing about.
no, in fact, that guy TOLD YOU he posted the ENTIRE LETTER
I'm not talking about a "letter" but the scriptures, Race. I could not care less about that guy's opinion. That's all it is... His opinion of what the scriptures have to say. The scriptures are not an inventory of every piece of the grave clothes that wrapped the body... The scriptures gave a thumbnail description of the burial of Jesus, not a detailed one. Those scriptures said he was buried according to the customs of the Jews... Ergo we must look to the burial customs of Jews circa 33AD in the Jerusalem environs to learn exactly what details of the burial customs of the Jews were.
...instead of discussing the SCIENCE? (Love the ALL CAPITAL LETTER emphasis, by the way.)
Very little science involved in shroudism because the church holds the shroud so tightly. If the church wanted the truth, we’d probably already have the truth, but the church only lets certain, approved people have any access at certain, approved intervals. As I believe I’ve posted before, Jesus hisself said “there shall no sign be given, but the sign of the prophet Jonas”. And to the little woman who told herself, “If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole,” Jesus turned about, and said, “Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole.”
This limited-access-for-the-chosen-few-scientists stuff might be interesting, but it also might very much more likely be shroudolatry, and I neither need it nor understand those who do have such a need, as I also neither need to venerate Mary nor understand those who do. Sorry.
Re: SCIENCE
The C-14 tests the shroud has so far “failed” prove the shroud is medieval, or prove that those holding and cutting cloth samples from the shroud are incredibly incompetent and definitely should not be trusted holding the shroud, or prove that those holding and cutting cloth samples from the shroud intentionally bonerized and sandbagged the sampling and therefore, the test results, because they see foresaw the most benefit to themselves down that route. And if this third possibility is true, then, again, those holding and cutting cloth samples from the shroud are definitly not to be trusted with it. Either the shroud ain’t authentic, or it’s held by the incompetent and isn’t safe in their keeping, or it’s held by malefactors and ain’t safe in their keeping. Lose/lose/lose situation, if yer askin’ me.
The church gave a scientific team unlimited round-the-clock access for 5 days - one would think that would have been more than enough time to see through a clumsy 14th Century fake. The church later permitted scientists to cut samples for radiocarbon testing. Your implication that the shroud only appears to be unique because it has been closely-held by the church is demonstrably false. Unlimited public access would have resulted in the shroud's rapid destruction - what you see as proof of deception is, in fact, simply good stewardship.
My faith has nothing to do with the shroud and is not dependent on it in any way. I am, however, extremely interested in its history, its physical properties and the fact that it is absolutely unique.
“permitted scientists to cut samples for radiocarbon testing”
result of those tests?
Contrary to your assertion, there has been a LOT of science applied to the study of the Shroud. Your assertion is completely WRONG. There are literally hundreds of scientific articles written on the Shroud and dozens of peer-reviewed published articles.
Just because the church does not allow it to be chopped up and destroyed in testing by any "scientist" who requests samples does not mean that science has not been done. It has been subjected to a panoply of scientific testing and the church even allowed some destructive Carbon 14 testing. But that turned out misguided when the protocols established by STURP were ignored by a collusion of idiot scientists and over-protective church leaders, and instead of eight samples from eight areas around the shroud that STURP protocols called for, a single sample was taken from a repaired area—that STURP scientists had said to avoid because it tested differently than all other areas of the Shroud—that resulted in bad, totally invalid science, when their C14 Test came back with spurious dates from a melange of old original and now, known to be later replacement materials rewoven into the original to repair it.
The Church had NO SAY in who was selected in the STURP science team which included Jews, agnostics, Atheists, protestants and Catholics... and since then samples taken by STURP have been sent to world class scientists in their specialties such as Drs. Alan Alder (Jewish) and Bruce Heller, top specialists in the study of human blood and its components, and Dr. Bruce Cameron (Agnostic),who has a double doctorate in the study of hemoglobin, meth-hemoglobin, and its derivatives, these people have all published PEER REVIEWED articles in well established scientific publications and have withstood that peer-review. The detractors have NOT.
So your assertion is both misguided and biased.
“collusion of idiot scientists and over-protective church leaders, and instead of eight samples from eight areas around the shroud that STURP protocols called for, a single sample was taken from a repaired area”
“...The Church had NO SAY”
Looks more like the church had its chance to have its say and blew it, big time. And you say there’s been “a LOT of science” and my assertion is “completely WRONG”, but when things really counted, in/at STURP, the science was bungled, or even intentionally sabotaged.
Love those CAPITALIZED EMPHASIS WORDS. Really love ‘em. Keep pounding. Shows you really are SERIOUS.
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