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Will America Suffer the Fate of Rome?
American Thinker ^ | 05/30/2011 | Robert Klein Engler

Posted on 05/30/2011 7:21:20 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

Many people with whom I talk these days say they sense something is happening to their familiar world.  They are not sure how to put this feeling into words.  For them, the river of time seems to have altered its course.  You hear this uncertainty expressed not only at cocktail parties but at barbecues, too.

We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America." These words by Barack Obama echo through time. Have they been heard before, in another language, in another age?

I sense those who walk by the banks of the Potomac nowadays realize the politics of those who once walked by the banks of the Tiber.  We share in our time, as the United States of America passes into something else, an experience shared by those who lived through the transformation of the Roman Republic into the Roman Empire.

Like a mighty river, the flow of politics creates a current that is irresistible. We may want to stop the flow but we can't. That feeling of struggling against the current, of swiming hard but getting nowhere, is what the man cast adrift feels before he is drowned by events."

In Niall Rudd's introduction to his English translation of The Republic and The Laws by the Roman statesman Cicero, Rudd writes:

Cicero dreams of Rome as she had been a hundred years earlier, before the structure had begun to give way under the strains of empire.

Granted, it would be too late to save the Republic now; three years later Caesar would cross the Rubicon. But even if, by some stroke of magic, Cicero's dream had come true, disaster would not have been averted. By the 50s huge problems had developed which could not be solved within the framework of what was, essentially a city-state.

First, an empire of such size and complexity could not be run by a small élite of all-around amateurs in which within a decade the same man might be expected to manage finances, administer city departments, sit as a judge, and lead a military campaign. The voting system was over-centralized and out-dated; citizens could no longer be expected to travel to the capitol for elections and other meetings of the assembly...

There were also intractable economic problems resulting from the decay of smallholdings owing to the absence of farmers on military service...All this led to the growth of a workless and resentful urban proletariat, which could easily be inflamed by demagogues.

That, in turn, contributed to the worse problem of all. Troops were recruited by promise of loot and land...(these troops) depended for their future, not on the Senate, but on the power of an ambitious general...There is an air of unreality about the Laws.

Little by little, the river of time floated the Republic into the Empire. Today, we look back and remember the insanity and debauchery of Caligula. We remember, too, Cicero for is writings and how he, according to Plutarch, "stretched out his neck to meet the murder's stroke."

Now, let us imagine a thousand years from today.  A scholar of that new age is translating from English to his own language what remains of William F. Buckley's God and Man at Yale.

In his introduction to Buckley, this future translator writes about Buckley as if he were the Cicero of his age living in the American Republic, except Buckley did not suffer the fate of having his hands and head cut off by his political enemies.

Our future translator writes:

Buckley dreams of the United States as she had been a hundred years earlier, before the structure had begun to give way under the strains of globalization.

Granted, it would be too late to save the US Constitution, now; the Democrats would run Obama for President.  But even if, by some stroke of magic, Buckley's conservative dream had come true, disaster would not have been averted.

By the late 1990s huge problems had developed which could not be solved within the framework of what was, essentially a nation-state.  First, a nation of such size and complexity as the United States could not be run by a small élite of patronage, party politicians in which within a decade the same man might be expected to manage finances when he was only good at campaigning.

The voting system was corrupted by illegal immigration and out-dated machinery; voters could no longer be expected to prove citizenship, or vote for a candidate who would abolish their government job...

There were also intractable economic problems resulting from the decay of small business, owing to the increase in government regulations and higher taxes ... All this led to the growth of a workless and resentful urban proletariat who lived off welfare, and which could easily be inflamed by Democrat Party demagogues and their media allies.

That, in turn, contributed to the worse problem of all.  Troops, who were recruited to fight the desert wars, came home to inflation, falling property values, and unemployment.  Their patriotism also was suspect in the New North American Union.

Many of these troops joined the underground and resistance.  They were hunted by military drones, the same drones they used for desert warfare ... There is an air of unreality about God and Man at Yale.

Three thousand years have passed in translation.  Our translators wonder if to be born and to die is the common journey of man.  In-between, there is politics; Republics and Empires come and go.  Some are statesmen.  Other men are assassinated.

Robert Klein Engler lives in Des Plaines, Illinois.  His books, Monarchs of August and Contra Obama, are available from Lulu.com.  Read about his legal defense fund.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Government
KEYWORDS: america; fallofrome; godsgravesglyphs; immigration; romanempire; rome
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To: SeekAndFind
Rudd's analysis is flawed on one critical point.
The leaders of the Senate in Cicero's day were men of great public experience. The enervation of the Senate began when the Principate began; that is, when the Senate ceased to play an active part in running the Republic.
21 posted on 05/30/2011 8:01:44 AM PDT by quadrant (1o)
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To: SeekAndFind
Emperor Zero believes in panem et circenses, our bread his circus.
22 posted on 05/30/2011 8:02:46 AM PDT by hflynn
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To: SeekAndFind

I do not think the United States is headed towards the fate of Rome. It -could- be headed towards the fate of the Soviet Union, however; bankruptcy and dissolution. Three notes about that: when the USSR fell, most of the people rejoiced, or were relieved, the Soviet ruble was literally reduced to use as toilet paper (I saw it), the Russians came out just fine, after a period of turmoil and anxiety.

America, and Americans, are far greater than that pustule on the Potomac. We were here and thriving before the federal government, and we will be here and thriving AFTER the federal government. Indeed, its rupture and drainage will set us free again.


23 posted on 05/30/2011 8:05:28 AM PDT by Psalm 144 (Voodoo Republicans: Don't read their lips - watch their hands.)
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To: Psalm 144
"America, and Americans, are far greater than that pustule on the Potomac. We were here and thriving before the federal government, and we will be here and thriving AFTER the federal government.

Wow..just wow...well said!!

24 posted on 05/30/2011 8:09:43 AM PDT by Earthdweller (Harvard won the election again...so what's the problem.......? Embrace a ruler today.)
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To: SeekAndFind; Savage Beast; Jack Black; 2ndDivisionVet
America will not fall and disappear like Rome, but more likely be restored through a violent and bloody Revolution/Civil War where many who are not prepared will not survive.

Americans Buy a Close to 1 Million Guns in February 2011 - Could this be another record year for gun purchases? February NSSF-Adjusted NICS Background Checks Up 13.6%

25 posted on 05/30/2011 8:10:04 AM PDT by DTogo (High time to bring back the Sons of Liberty !!)
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To: Savage Beast

RE: The United States is definitely on the fast track to Caligula.

Well, should I be relieved because Rome’s slow decline occurred over a period of approximately 300 years after Caligula, culminating on September 4, 476, when Romulus Augustus, the last Emperor of the Western Roman Empire, was deposed by Odoacer, a Germanic chieftain?

If America is like Rome of old, it means that all of us including our chidlren and grandchildren won’t be here to see the USA fall the way Rome did when it happens.

:)


26 posted on 05/30/2011 8:12:08 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: Aetius
The 1965 Immigration Act changed the demography of this country forever. Supported by the likes of Ted Kennedy, the Act was intended to make America look like the rest of the world. By 2019 half of the children 18 and under will be minorities as defined by the USG and by 2039 half of the country will be minorities.

The 1965 Immigration Act: Anatomy of a Disaster

Currently, 1.6 million legal and illegal immigrants settle in the country each year; 350,000 immigrants leave each year, resulting in a net immigration of 1.25 million. Since 1970, the U.S. population has increased from 203 million to 310 million, i.e., over 100 million. In the next 40 years, the population will increase by 130 million to 440 million. Three-quarters of the increase in our population since 1970 and the projected increase will be the result of immigration. The U.S., the world’s third most populous nation, has the highest annual rate of population growth of any developed country in the world, i.e., 0.977 percent (2010 estimate), principally due to immigration.

27 posted on 05/30/2011 8:17:33 AM PDT by kabar
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To: SeekAndFind
We have a vision problem.

The Bible says, “a people without a vision perishes.”

The vision this country was founded on, Constitutionally, was “Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord.”

Some still share that vision, but enough to make it a national vision?

The role of evangelism is key to saving the Republic. The principle is “seek first the Kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added unto you.”

The vision that our God is the Lord in contrary to the more commonly held worldly vision that seeks “more, and better” government administered theoretically by a meritocracy. The world seeks after a “better king”

Ancient Israel had this problem:

“Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel to Ramah, and said to him, Behold, thou art become old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now appoint us a king to judge us, like all the nations. And the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed to Jehovah. And Jehovah said to Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. According to all the deeds that they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, in that they have forsaken me and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. And now hearken unto their voice; only, testify solemnly unto them, and declare unto them the manner of the king that shall reign over them. And Samuel spoke all the words of Jehovah to the people that asked of him a king. And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: he will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, on his chariot and among his horsemen, and they shall run before his chariots; and he will take them that he may appoint for himself captains over thousands, and captains over fifties, and that they may plow his ground, and reap his harvest, and make his instruments of war and instruments of his chariots. And he will take your daughters for perfumers, and cooks, and bakers. And your fields, and your vineyards, and your olive yards, the best, will he take and give to his servants. And he will take the tenth of your seed and of your vineyards, and give to his chamberlains and to his servants. And he will take your bondmen, and your bondwomen, and your comeliest young men, and your asses, and use them for his work. He will take the tenth of your sheep. And ye shall be his servants. And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king whom ye have chosen; and Jehovah will not answer you in that day. And the people refused to hearken to the voice of Samuel; and they said, No, but there shall be a king over us, that we also may be like all the nations; and our king shall judge us, and go out before us, and conduct our wars. And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he repeated them in the ears of Jehovah. And Jehovah said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said to the men of Israel, . . . “ (1 Samuel 8:4-22)

Key thoughts are: 1. They were rejecting God. 2. Their king would oppress them. 3. They wanted to be like other nations.

This is opposed to these thoughts: 1. Our form of government is only suitable for a Godly people. 2. Liberty and freedom for all. 3. American exceptionalism.

The vision of our Constitutional Republic didn't rely upon a strong leadership, a king if you will. It relied upon a God fearing citizenry.

28 posted on 05/30/2011 8:19:56 AM PDT by hfr (In the day of socialism it is not the superman, it is the superclass that is the superhero.)
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To: Baynative

Agreed. I went to an Agenda 21 briefing held by Tom DeWeese. I told him that he should include immigration into the presentation. It really is driving everything else.


29 posted on 05/30/2011 8:27:27 AM PDT by kabar
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To: SeekAndFind

Yes.

And for all the same reasons.

The names, dates, and places all change.
The story line is always the same.


30 posted on 05/30/2011 8:28:26 AM PDT by gfbtbb
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To: Savage Beast

Unfortunately, the American people have been brainwashed by such bromides as “We are a nation of immigrants” or “Diversity and multiculturalism are strengths.” 53% of immigrant headed households are on welfare.


31 posted on 05/30/2011 8:32:00 AM PDT by kabar
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To: gfbtbb

I suppose there will be a Marius, and a Sulla to oppose and purge before we get to the second and third acts of the farce of repetitive history.

Everybody always forgets Sulla. They shouldn’t.


32 posted on 05/30/2011 8:38:45 AM PDT by BrewingFrog (I brew, therefore I am!)
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To: Psalm 144

“America, and Americans, are far greater than that pustule on the Potomac. We were here and thriving before the federal government, and we will be here and thriving AFTER the federal government. Indeed, its rupture and drainage will set us free again.”

I’m thinking we’ll soon see a state’s convention where the federal government is abolished. States will form into different confederacies of politically like-minded states where some will survive and even thrive, while others will sink into chaos and despotism.

My reasoning is simple: two groups of people, one believing in individual rights and liberties, and the other wanting to force slavery on all, cannot and will not live together. History at least teaches us that.

If we don’t amicably separate, there will be war.


33 posted on 05/30/2011 8:39:44 AM PDT by sergeantdave (The democrat party is a seditious organization that must be outlawed)
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To: Psalm 144

I wouldn’t say Russia is just fine. Alcoholism is epidemic, and their army will be majority Muslim in a few years. Their replacement rate is around 1.5, way below the break-even of 2.1. Demographic time bomb.


34 posted on 05/30/2011 8:45:41 AM PDT by FlyVet
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To: hfr

Excellent thoughts!


35 posted on 05/30/2011 8:46:12 AM PDT by EmilyGeiger ("January 29,2013....The end of an ERROR!)
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To: kabar
What I see, especially in the Pacific NW is that if the peace advocates push and agenda, the gays are there to support them, the environmentalists are there to support them, the unions are there to support them, the teachers let kids out of school to support them, the abortion lovers are there to support them.

Likewise, when there is a push for a gay agenda those diverse groups are there to show unity and work for the cause. Because on the left all these agendas play into the one big goal of taking down America in order to promote the one world, one people, one society utopia they dream of.

On the right there has never been that sort of unified defense of our constitution or heritage. Conservatives will show up when an issue bothers them personally, otherwise they simply state their preferences with their votes - and even that effort is not always there. The majority of conservatives are good hearted folks who mind their own business and they simply do not recognize the growing effort to take down all they believe in. This is why a vocal minority is taking control of the country. They are clever, they are energetic and they have time to burn. While the rest of us are working at being productive, they work like judo masters to use our strength against us. They take the fruits of our labors by pressing the liberal members of congress and their weak colleagues on the right to give them our confiscated tax dollars for their self serving greed.

36 posted on 05/30/2011 8:50:14 AM PDT by Baynative (Truth is treason in an empire of lies)
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To: SeekAndFind

Were already well on our way, and it started well before Obama, he just put it into High Gear.


37 posted on 05/30/2011 8:52:15 AM PDT by Husker24
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To: Aetius
If immigration were drastically reduced soon, there would still be hope.

That is what we should be pushing for, above everything else. If we don't stop illegal immigration, deport illegals already here, start a moratorium on legal immigration, and eliminate anchor babies, absolutely nothing else is going to matter.

38 posted on 05/30/2011 8:53:08 AM PDT by Nea Wood (Silly liberal . . . paychecks are for workers!)
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To: central_va
The illegal alien invasion is a political thing—if America starts to really collapse that issue,along with many others,will become moot.
This is because of the 2nd Amendment—which neither the Republic of Rome nor The Roman Empire had—and for good reason—primitive arms were only effective in the hands of the well trained and at war,the well drilled. The sword was no more,in the hands of the average civilian,than the machete in the hands of the murdering Hutu massacring the Tutsi during the Rwandan genocide Clinton allowed to happen.
Look at the history of the AK-47—granted we are not allowed fully automatic weapons but American citizens with guns are way above average in marksmanship.
When Obama finally collapses our economy in his effort to make America a socialist totalitarian tyranny with him as Dictator—there will be weeks,perhaps months of violent anarchy until well armed patriots finally put thing right as our Founding Fathers gave us (and expected us to use) the power to do.
The illegal alien invaders that survive will have a last long look at America from buses crossing the borders.
39 posted on 05/30/2011 8:54:35 AM PDT by Happy Rain ("I speak LOUD and I carry an even BIGGER stick! And I use it too-WHACK!!!"-candidate Yosemite Sam.)
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To: SeekAndFind
Will America Suffer the Fate of Rome?







I think not!
40 posted on 05/30/2011 8:55:29 AM PDT by HighlyOpinionated (I am a US Citizen, A Patriot, A TEA Partier, An Oath Keeper, A Voter, An Auburn Fan!)
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