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Is submitting to a TSA pat down a violation of the military oath?
Vanity ^ | 11/23/2010 | Nevergore

Posted on 11/23/2010 4:58:01 AM PST by nevergore

Over 30 years ago, as a young lad, I volumtarily swore an oath to "defend the US against all enemies, both foriegn and domestic". At the time, I initially walked out of the swearing in ceremony since I hadn't read the oath I was about to swear . I demanded that my Navy recruiter provide me a complete copy to review before I went back into the room for the "repeat after me".

Yes, I was a pain in the A$$ even as a yute....

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TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: airport; chat; constitution; search; tsa; tsapervs; vanity
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Over 30 years ago, as a young lad, I volumtarily swore an oath to "defend the US against all enemies, both foriegn and domestic". At the time, I initially walked out of the swearing in ceremony since I hadn't read the oath I was about to swear . I demanded that my Navy recruiter provide me a complete copy to review before I went back into the room for the "repeat after me".

Yes, I was a pain in the A$$ even as a yute....

However, at this young age, I understood that an oath was a solemn pledge; not just a service commitment, but a lifelong commitment. A core responsibility.

With that base understanding, I've having a hard time preparing for my next trip knowing that I will have to submit and surrender my 4th Amendment rights to a federal employee who is acting on orders from a non-elected official without direct authority from Congress.

I believe it's my responsibility to refuse and confront the TSA federal agents.

How do other FR veterans feel about this issue? I'm really struggling with this....

1 posted on 11/23/2010 4:58:03 AM PST by nevergore
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To: nevergore
they could stop it all if they would just let citizens carry their own weapons aboard

.

2 posted on 11/23/2010 5:04:59 AM PST by Elle Bee
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To: nevergore

Military personnel regularly pee in a cup for a drug search, don’t they? Same thing, really, right down to the naughty bits.


3 posted on 11/23/2010 5:05:36 AM PST by Wolfie
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To: Wolfie

That’s different. You also swear to obey the orders of the (military) officers appointed over you. TSA agents are NOT officers under whom you serve.


4 posted on 11/23/2010 5:08:23 AM PST by fredhead (Liberals think globally, reason rectally, act idiotically.)
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To: nevergore

Well, it IS a violation of our 4th Amendment.

“we don’t need no stinkin 4th amendment”


5 posted on 11/23/2010 5:12:20 AM PST by Reagan69 (Let me know when those health insurance premiums go down.)
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To: nevergore
I, (name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

Sorry, FRiend, but you did not swear to defend the U.S. You swore to support and defend the Constitution.

But yes, TSA is in full violation of the Fourth Amendment. To wit:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

6 posted on 11/23/2010 5:17:19 AM PST by DNME (Got a year's supply of food in storage? No? Then don't plan on taking mine!)
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To: nevergore

I don’t understand why you’re struggling with this. You are a self-admitted former bad boy, and a veteran! A situation like this ought to evoke your sense of adventure and your patriotism.

Civil disobedience could get you arrested, interviewed on tv, 15 minutes of fame, a wikipedia entry, some great story material, maybe a book, movie, line of apparel, a hundred thousand hits on youtube...

...but you’ll be performing a valuable, noble service to America. So just do what your conscience bids you, friend.

Be a shepherd, not a sheep.

PS: Take along a buddy, a disposable wireless spy cam, duplicate wallet, keys and ID. Have backup at home, uploading your data and keeping the bail money neat.


7 posted on 11/23/2010 5:26:32 AM PST by 668 - Neighbor of the Beast (Just say NO to Janetal patdowns.)
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To: DNME
Thank's for the clarification...I knew it was the Constitution of the United States... LOL, my excuse is it's early and I haven't caffenated enough yet... but as you noted, the commitment was sworn before God....

Does TSA now fit the garment of "domestic enemy"? Does a direct violation of the Constitution (4th amendment) by Federal agents rise to that level? Is TSA now an enemy combatant?

8 posted on 11/23/2010 5:28:25 AM PST by nevergore ("It could be that the purpose of my life is simply to serve as a warning to others.")
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To: nevergore

Show up wearing a burka with nothing underneath. Step into the machine, drop the burka, and invite the screener to “pat this”.


9 posted on 11/23/2010 5:30:35 AM PST by csmusaret (Q: How do they say incompetent failure in Kenya? A: Barack Obama)
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To: fredhead

So how long before the blanket order comes down?


10 posted on 11/23/2010 5:30:52 AM PST by Wolfie
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To: nevergore
Back on Nov 19th I posted this:

Why don’t we all just carry a copy of the Bill of Rights, with the 4th Amendment highlighted, and show it to the TSA inspector (and his supervisor) and tell them to “BACK OFF”?

When I was commissioned in the USMC I took an oath:

“I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely; and without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter; So help me God.”

Although I have not been on active duty since 1978, I still take that oath very seriously. Semper Fidelis - ALWAYS faithful.

Along with a copy of the Bill of Rights, I would also show this to the TSA:


11 posted on 11/23/2010 5:31:03 AM PST by BwanaNdege ("a comeuppance is due the arrogant elites" - Charles Krauthammer)
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To: nevergore

I agree the TSA random searches are illegal under the 4th Amendment. All searches must be based on probable cause and a warrant issued thereof, or the search is unreasonable by definition. Nevertheless, I don’t believe you are violating your oath to defend the US Constitution by submitting to the nude scan or genital grope.

Personally? I intend to opt out and inform the groper that I believe they are conducting an illegal search per the 4th Amendment (while they conduct their illegal search).

You really have little choice if you want to fly, and I don’t doubt you will be required to fly in the performance of your military duties. So, my advice? Submit under protest. Don’t make it easy on them, but don’t fall on your sword for this latest in a long list of government violations of the constitution.

BTW, how could legal searches be done? The TSA could have special courts for the express purpose of issuing warrants based on probable cause. This could be done without racial profiling. What they would look for are people who fit terrorist profiles, of which race and religion would only be two of several factors considered. OR we could return airport security back to airline control. As private entities, they could establish whatever criteria they want for passengers without violating the 4th Amendment.

The vast majority of travelers probably have no problem with searches based on actionable intelligence, i.e. imminent threats. But these searches are completely random and apparently open ended. What’s the end game? When will it be safe to end the searches? Answer: NEVER.


12 posted on 11/23/2010 5:33:23 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Bring on 2012!)
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To: BwanaNdege

[politely asked] Have you stopped flying? If not, we look forward to the news article about your adventure. I keep waiting patiently for an FR poster to make good on their “I would...” statements.

Last week, I chose to drive 8 hours to a business meeting rather than fly.


13 posted on 11/23/2010 5:36:58 AM PST by Pecos (Liberty and Honor will not die on my watch.)
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To: nevergore
With that base understanding, I've having a hard time preparing for my next trip knowing that I will have to submit and surrender my 4th Amendment rights to a federal employee who is acting on orders from a non-elected official without direct authority from Congress.

You have been doing that for years. Your luggage is searched. Your carry-on is searched. Your pockets area turned out and the contents examined. And that's just the airport. Drive across the border and your 4th Amendment rights are out the window as well. And you're just now noticing that?

14 posted on 11/23/2010 5:38:33 AM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: 668 - Neighbor of the Beast

I can live without the 15 minutes of fame.....

Hmmmm...but the book rights....

Solemn oath kept and the money too....Sign me up....

LOL, that aside, I believe that I will drive and let the political course run a bit to see were this settles out before I spend time in the Fulton County Jail....

The issue I raised is real, what are veterans to do to uphold their oath?


15 posted on 11/23/2010 5:39:13 AM PST by nevergore ("It could be that the purpose of my life is simply to serve as a warning to others.")
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To: nevergore
Sorry to tell you but legally your oath expired when your time in the service did. of course you can impose it upon your self, but it is only a philosophical exercise.
16 posted on 11/23/2010 5:39:30 AM PST by mad_as_he$$ (V for Vendetta.)
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To: nevergore

Heck, the PRESIDENT now fits the definition of domestic enemy!!!!


17 posted on 11/23/2010 5:43:57 AM PST by Shimmer1 (Perseverance. In a confrontation between the river and the rock, the river always wins)
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To: Pecos

Since the new procedures have been implemented I haven’t flown but I will in the near furture.

Didn’t issue a “I would” statement but a what should I do and questioned what would other FR veterans do. Playing chess here not checkers, I want to have vetted out what I would do before in the situation.

I’ll probably drive for now and give the political process an opportunity to sort it out....


18 posted on 11/23/2010 5:47:42 AM PST by nevergore ("It could be that the purpose of my life is simply to serve as a warning to others.")
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To: nevergore

You Don’t Need to See His Identification

http://noblasters.com/post/1650102322/my-tsa-encounter

On November 21, 2010, I was allowed to enter the U.S. through an airport security checkpoint without being x-rayed or touched by a TSA officer. This post explains how.

This past Sunday, I was returning from a trip to Europe. I flew from Paris to Cincinnati, landing in Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport.

As I got off my flight, I did all of the things that are normally requested from U.S. citizens returning from abroad. I filled out the customs declarations, confirmed that I hadn’t set foot on any farmland, and answered questions about the chocolates that I had purchased in Switzerland. While I don’t believe that these questions are necessary, I don’t mind answering them if it means some added security. They aren’t particularly intrusive. My passport was stamped, and I moved through customs a happy citizen returning home.

But wait – here was a second line to wait in.

This new line led to a TSA security checkpoint. You see, it is official TSA policy that people (both citizens and non-citizens alike) from international flights are screened as they enter the airport, despite the fact that they have already flown. Even before the new controversial security measures were put in place, I found this practice annoying. But now, as I looked past the 25 people waiting to get into their own country, I saw it: the dreaded Backscatter imaging machine.

Now, I’ve read a fair amount about the controversy surrounding the new TSA policies. I certainly don’t enjoy being treated like a terrorist in my own country, but I’m also not a die-hard constitutional rights advocate. However, for some reason, I was irked. Maybe it was the video of the 3-year old getting molested, maybe it was the sexual assault victim having to cry her way through getting groped, maybe it was the father watching teenage TSA officers joke about his attractive daughter. Whatever it was, this issue didn’t sit right with me. We shouldn’t be required to do this simply to get into our own country.

So, since I had nobody waiting for me at home and no connecting flight to catch, I had some free time. I decided to test my rights.

After putting all my stuff through the x-ray, I was asked to go through the Backscatter. I politely said that I didn’t want to. The technician quipped to his colleague, “We’ve got an opt-out.” They laughed. He turned back and started to explain.

After he finished, I said, “I understand what the pat-down entails, but I wanted to let you know that I do not give you permission to touch my genitals or the surrounding area. If you do, I will consider it assault.”

He called his manager over, who again informed me of the policy. Throughout this event, this happened quite a few times. After raising my concerns regarding the policy to an officer, they often simply quoted back the policy. For the sake of brevity, I will simply say “Policy restatement.”

I said, “I am aware that it is policy, but I disagree with the policy, and I think that it is unconstitutional. As a U.S. citizen, I have the right to move freely within my country as long as I can demonstrate proof of citizenship and have demonstrated no reasonable cause to be detained.”

Policy restatement. “You have two options – the Backscatter or the pat down. It is your choice, but those are the only ways you can go through security.”

I asked if I could speak to his manager.

“I’m the supervisor here.”

“Do you have a manager?”

“Yes, but he’s very far away at the moment. And he’ll say the same thing I am.” Policy restatement.

At this point, I took out my iPhone, activated the voice recorder, and asked The Supervisor, “Per my constitutional rights, I am not allowed to be detained without reasonable cause for arrest. Now, am I free to go?”

He answered, “If you leave, we will call the APD.”

I asked, “Who is the APD?”

“The Airport Police Department.”

I said, “Actually, that’s probably a good idea. Let’s call them and your manager.”

The Supervisor turned and walked away without saying anything. I stood and waited, chatting to The Technician about how they aren’t allowed to wear radiation badges, even though they work with radiation equipment. He said, “I think I’m a couple steps ahead of you regarding looking out for my own health.”

I stood and waited for 20 minutes. Two cops showed up. Big ones. I admit, I did not want to be handcuffed by these guys.

One cop was older than the other, but they were still clearly partners. Neither of them took the lead on answering my questions, and neither of them told the other what to do. They came over to me and asked me to explain the issue. I first showed them the iPhone. After I explained my position, they restated the policy to me.

I said, “Yes sir. I understand the policy, but I still disagree and I still don’t think that I can be made to do these searches in order to go home. Now am I free to go?”

They didn’t answer.

I repeated the question. “Since you are actual police officers and not simply TSA, I am sure you have had much more training on my rights as a U.S. citizen, so you understand what is at stake here. So, am I free to go? Or am I being detained?”

Young Cop answers, “You aren’t being detained, but you can’t go through there.”

“Isn’t that what detaining is? Preventing me from leaving?”

“You can leave if you want, but it has to be that direction.” He points back towards customs. Young Cop asks, “Why are you doing this?”

I explain that I’m worried that the Backscatter has unproven health risks. And that for all he knows, I might be a sexual assault victim and don’t feel like being touched. I say that the policy is needlessly invasive and it doesn’t provide any added security.

He asks, “But didn’t you go through this when you left on your flight?”

“Yes,” I say, grinning, “But I didn’t want to miss my flight then.”

The cops leave, and I stand around and wait some more. It should be noted that throughout this time, no fewer than 10 TSA officers and technicians are standing around, watching me. I was literally the only one still waiting to go through security.

The cops, The TSA Supervisor, and another guy were standing behind the checkpoint deliberating about something. I explained this to my iPhone and The Supervisor shouted, “Does that thing have video?”

“No sir. Just audio.” I was telling the truth – I’m still on an iPhone 3G.

After a while, Young Cop comes and asks me for my papers. My passport, my boarding pass, my driver’s license, and even a business card. I give him everything except the business card. He told me that he was just gathering information for the police report, which is standard procedure. I complied – I knew that this was indeed standard.

He left, and a Delta Airlines manager comes over and starts talking to me. He is clearly acting as a mediator. He asks what I would consent to, if given my options. I explain that I want the least intrusive possible solution that is required. I say, “I will not do anything that is not explicitly stated on recording as mandatory.” He leaves.

Let me pause and clarify the actors’ moods here, because they will soon start to change:

The Supervisor: Very standoffish. Sticking to policy, no exceptions.
The TSA Officials: Mainly amused. Not very concerned otherwise.
The Cops: Impartial observers and consultants. Possibly a bit frustrated that I’m creating the troubles, but being very professional and respectful regardless.
The Delta Supervisor: Trying to help me see the light. He doesn’t mind the work - he’s here all day anyway, so he’d rather spend it ensuring that his customer is happy.
After another wait, Old Cop returns, and asks me what I want. I tell him, “I want to go home without going through the Backscatter and without having my genitals touched. Those are my only two conditions. I will strip naked here if that is what it takes, but I don’t want to be touched.”

He offers as an alternative, “What if we were to escort you out with us? It would involve a pat-down, but it would be us doing it instead.”

“Would you touch my balls?”

“I don’t want to touch your – genital region, but my hand might brush against it.”

I clarify, “Well, like I said, I’ll do whatever you say is mandatory. If you tell me that you have to touch my balls—“

“—I said no such thing. You’re putting words in my mouth.”

“OK. I apologize. If you say that a pat-down is mandatory, and that as a condition of that pat-down, I may have my genitals brushed against by your hand, even though you don’t want to, I will do that. But only if you say it is mandatory.”

“I’m not going to say that.”

“OK. So am I free to go?”

“You are free to go in that direction.” He points back towards customs. Then he walks away to commune with the others.

My iPhone is running out of battery, so I take out my laptop, sit in a corner, and plug it in. I have some work to do anyway, so I pull up Excel and start chugging away for about 20 minutes.

This is where the turning point happens.

The cops come back and start talking with me. Again, they are asking why I’m doing it, don’t I have a connection to make, etc. They are acting more curious at this point – no longer trying to find a contradiction in my logic.

I eventually ask what would happen if I got up and left, and just walked through security. They shrugged. “We wouldn’t do anything on our own. We are only acting on behalf of the TSA. They are in charge of this area.”

“So if he told you to arrest me, you would? And if he didn’t, you wouldn’t?”

“That’s right,” Young Cop says.

“OK well then I think it is best if we all talk together as a group now. Can you call them over?”

The Supervisor returns, along with the Delta Manager. The Supervisor is quite visibly frustrated.

I explain, “The police have explained to me that it is your call on whether or not I am being detained. If I walked through that metal detector right now, you would have to ask them to arrest me in order for them to do anything.”

He starts to defer responsibility to the officers. They emphasize that no – they have no issue with me and they are only acting on his behalf. It is his jurisdiction. It is policy. They won’t detain me unless he tells them to.

So I emphasize the iPhone again, and ask,” So, if I were to get up, walk through the metal detector, and not have it go off, would you still have them arrest me?”

The Supervisor answers, “I can’t answer that question. That is no longer an option because you were selected for the Backscatter.”

“Well you can answer the question because it is a yes or no question. If I got up and left, would you have them arrest me?”

“I can’t answer that question.”

The moods have changed. The cops are now frustrated with him because he’s pawning off his decision-making responsibility to them. He’s stopping what is clearly a logical solution to the problem. Meanwhile, the Supervisor is just growing more and more furious with me.

In another deferment of responsibility (which he probably thought was an intimidation factor), “Well then I guess I’m just going to have to call the FSD.”

Unphased, I ask, “What’s the FSD?”

“The Federal Security Director.” And he walks away.

I can see him talking on the phone to the FSD – a man apparently named Paul – and I can only catch parts of the conversation:

“No, he’s been perfectly polite…”
“We tried that…”
“All he said was … Constitutional rights”
He walks over to Old Cop and hands him the phone. I can hear similar sound bites. They hang up, deliberate some more, and then wait some more.

Meanwhile, I’m typing away on my computer. Answering emails, working on my Excel model – things that I would have done at home regardless.

The Supervisor walks over and stands uncomfortably close to me. After typing for a bit more, I look up. His voice shakes, “I don’t know if I ever introduced myself.” He pulls out his badge. “My name is XXX XXX. Here is my badge. Now, I’ve shown you my credentials.”

Ah – he’s gotten the Miranda talk. I hide my smile.

“Here’s what we’re going to do. I’m going to escort you out of the terminal to the public area. You are to stay with me at all times. Do you understand?”

“Will I be touched?”

“I can’t guarantee that, but I am going to escort you out.”

“OK. I will do this. But I will restate that I still do not give you permission to touch my genitals or the surrounding area. If you do, I will still consider it assault.”

“I understand.”

And then came the most ridiculous scene of which I’ve ever been a part. I gather my things – jacket, scarf, hat, briefcase, chocolates. We walk over to the staff entrance and he scans his badge to let me through. We walk down the long hallway that led back to the baggage claim area. We skip the escalators and moving walkways. As we walk, there are TSA officials stationed at apparent checkpoints along the route. As we pass them, they form part of the circle that is around me. By the end of the walk, I count 13 TSA officials and 2 uniformed police officers forming a circle around me. We reach the baggage claim area, and everyone stops at the orange line. The Supervisor grunts, “Have a nice day,” and leaves.

In order to enter the USA, I was never touched, I was never “Backscatted,” and I was never metal detected. In the end, it took 2.5 hours, but I proved that it is possible. I’m looking forward to my next flight on Wednesday.


19 posted on 11/23/2010 5:49:02 AM PST by Shimmer1 (Perseverance. In a confrontation between the river and the rock, the river always wins)
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To: mad_as_he$$

Politely, sorry...but it didn’t expire with service....


20 posted on 11/23/2010 5:51:37 AM PST by nevergore ("It could be that the purpose of my life is simply to serve as a warning to others.")
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