Posted on 01/01/2010 7:09:42 PM PST by Perseverando
A Roanoke man says officers violated his rights during a dispute about his gun license.
A Roanoke man is suing city police over an altercation with officers that he said began as an argument about his permit to carry a concealed firearm.
Aaron A. Stevenson filed a lawsuit Tuesday in U.S. District Court in Roanoke alleging that his constitutional rights were violated during a May 6 traffic stop. He named two officers, Chief Joe Gaskins and the city as defendants.
On Wednesday, police spokeswoman Aisha Johnson referred questions to City Attorney Bill Hackworth, who was out of town and could not be contacted. Stevenson also could not be immediately contacted Wednesday.
The lawsuit gives this account of Stevenson's encounter with police:
Stevenson was driving along Williamson Road to pick up his daughter from church when Roanoke police Officer Jamie A. Kwiecinski stopped him. Stevenson was given a summons because his registration had expired.
Kwiecinski learned that Stevenson had a concealed carry permit and asked if he had a gun. Stevenson declined to answer.
Kwiecinski called for backup, and Officer Dwight W. Ayers arrived on the scene. Stevenson said the officers ignored his repeated invocation of his right to remain silent, and to have an attorney present during questioning.
The officers pulled Stevenson from his vehicle, the lawsuit said, took the .45-caliber handgun he wore in a belt holster, and put him in handcuffs in the back of a police car. Stevenson said he was threatened with loss of his permit, confiscation of his gun and indefinite detention while police investigated whether he was involved in anything criminal.
Officers never read Stevenson his Miranda rights, the lawsuit said, and Ayers told Stevenson the questioning would stop if he would admit to some criminal action.
As the incident continued, some of Stevenson's co-workers drove past and his employer stopped to see what was happening. The officers asked the employer if Stevenson had mental problems.
Stevenson said the tight handcuffs injured his wrists.
Eventually, Sgt. Sandy Duffey, a police supervisor, said to release Stevenson.
In the lawsuit, Stevenson asked for unspecified monetary damages, injunctions to prevent future incidents and a declaration that his civil rights had been violated.
Online court records indicated that the expired registration charge against Stevenson was dismissed in June.
You can’t carry in a house of worship “without a valid reason” under VA law - that’s even open to interpretation.
You can’t carry in a house of worship “without a valid reason” under VA law - that’s even open to interpretation.
http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/Gun_Laws_by_State.htm
See above. This is a pretty good clearing house of all the gun laws in all states.
I could not find a provision that clearly states a CCW holder is required to inform the police when asked.
Basically, VA cops can ask, but you, as a CCW holder, aren’t required to answer.
Here is the exact wording from the Virginia State Police website. You have to have and show them the card upon request, but you don’t have to tell them if you are carrying, so Roanoke City is screwed.
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_ResidentConcealed.shtm
“The person issued a permit or in possession of a de facto permit must have the permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and must display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department upon demand by a law enforcement officer.”
Here is the exact wording for those not wishing to click (from the VA State Police website)
(places where you can’t carry)
§18.2-283: To a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place, without good and sufficient reason.
If he has your drivers license, he knows you have a permit once he puts it in the computer.
see number 25. the answer is no, but sometimes it is better to go the extra mile and answer the nice officer’s question. It can be a lond wait in the back of the police car until someone with a clue shows up and lets you go.
Didn’t see an answer to my question, there. If you could point it out.
Thanks.
AFAIK there is no provision within VA firearms law requiring that you answer if you have a firearm. You are required to produce your CHP and photo id if asked “while you are carrying”.
In general, it’s probably a good idea to answer the question if asked in a polite and non confrontational manner - but that’s just my opinion.
I’m in MI at the moment and I did a quick study on the reciprocal laws between VA (where I have a CHP), MD, PA, OH and MI. In MI, you have to proactively tell the officer that you have a permit and a handgun. In MD, you need to lock it in a case in the trunk unloaded. PA and OH are closer to VA.
Ask a Cop in my Email:
Subject: Concealed Carry License
Message: Say a traffic stop, is it wise to show your CCW License along with your driver's license and proof of insurance? Or better to just produce the documents requested ?(I don't drink, so it won't be a DUI.)
I read somewhere it would reassure the officer that he is not dealing with a felon.
Aside, I am a member of the Class of 1962 at Va Tech. Roanoke has certainly changed since I passed through. I think I found you through Lawdog.
I wish this is something they covered when issuing Carry Concealed Weapon (CCW) permits. Although I guess in Virginia it's technically a Carry Concealed Handgun but the common acronym around the country seems to be CCW.
Anyway, in a state like VA there are a lot of guns, legally, and we do run into them occasionally. I know the politicians would like to hear they cause problems but they don't. It's very rare to come across someone legally carrying a concealed gun. Once in a while a thug without a record is doing it but it's short lived since they usually disqualify themselves with a criminal record pretty quickly.
One of the few times that I do run into legal CCW’s is on traffic stops or car accidents. This is one of the few times that normally law abiding folks end up coming into contact with law enforcement.
Here's how most stops for traffic infractions happen. I take off after a car and I'll call it in to dispatch so they know where I am.
Me: “RoaVaPD traffic stop.” Activate blue lights and start the stop.
Dispatch acknowledges: “RoaVaPD traffic stop.”
“RoaVaPD traffic stop Mason Mill at 13th St Northeast on Oh-Nine Virginia Alpha Bravo Charlie 1-2-3-4, grey Toyota Carolla, one occupant.”
The car stops and I walk up. At this point dispatch might might run the tag and let me know if it's stolen or the owner is suspended.
I'll make contact with the driver and request their license and registration and inform them why I stopped them. When I return to my car I'll use my computer to check the car and the driver and for their DMV record and see if they are wanted.
When we do a DMV check the computer automatically checks VCIN. That's the Virginia Criminal Information Network and we pronounce it “Vee-Sin.” VCIN contains records for, among other things, stolen cars, the Virginia Sex Offender Registry, and the CCW files. If whoever I'm running (the driver) has a CCW I'll get a response with all their information (name, address, date of birth, height, weight, eye color, hair color, when the permit expires, and the court that issued it.)
At this point I usually have a short out of body experience as I involuntarily shudder from being so close to a gun I didn't know about. Rationally I know that the holder is a law abiding citizen who has been through a background check. But the paranoid cop in me wonders why the driver didn't tell me. Are they planning on using the gun when I return with a ticket? Some people don't act rationally when we issue them a traffic summons.
If you have a CCW and you get stopped here's what I would prefer, and I think most cops would agree.
Get as far on the shoulder or off the road as you safely can. At night turn on your dome light. Roll down all four windows if you have power windows. Turn the engine off and place your hands on your steering wheel. Don't start digging around for your registration card, I can't tell if you are stashing a gun or getting one out. When I approach tell me you have a CCW and tell me where the gun is. Even if you aren't carrying I won't know that when I get the computer return so just tell me.
Me: “I'm Officer Paranoid with the Roanoke Police Department, the reason I stopped you tonight is I saw you roll through that stop sign back there, can I see your license and registration please?”
You, before you take your hands off the wheel: “Yes, officer I have a concealed handgun permit and my gun is on my right hip/in my backpack on the passenger seat/in the trunk/at home I'm not carrying it tonight.”
If you are standing on the side of the road or in a parking lot after a car crash it's still the same. I'll walk up and ask each of the drivers what happened and return to my car with all the documentation. When you hand me your stuff, before I go to my car, ask to speak to me privately. Discretely tell me you have the CCW and where the gun is.
If you are a passenger in a car I won't know unless I run you. You can inform me upfront when I talk to the driver as a matter of courtesy. If for some reason I get around to checking the passengers and discover the CCW from the computer I'll have the same reaction I mentioned above.
If you go through a DWI or other checkpoint have your documents ready before reaching the officer. As you hand the officer your license, registration, insurance and CCW permit tell them where your gun is, even if it's just at home.
We often get lookouts for cars leaving the scene of crimes or suspicious activity. We'll stop cars or people who match that description and identify them and attempt to discover if they are one and the same with what was involved in the incident. You may be stopped as a purely investigative stop to identify you and see if you were involved with a crime because your car description is the same. If you didn't just rob the bank or burglarize a business etc you have nothing to worry about and will be released quickly. You may not know why we are stopping you so just be upfront about the CCW and where the gun is, even if it's just at home.
Depending on whether I'm alone or why I stopped you or my level of paranoia I may ask for the gun. I will return it when our contact is over. Some over zealous rookie may take your rounds out or return the gun with the magazine removed. Sorry about that. I won't though.
Most cops, especially when you get away from major metropolitan areas, are hunters. Many have military backgrounds, and many have their own personal firearms. Personally I'm very glad for CCW’s and I had one before I was a cop. I'm not going to bust your chops for having it. I'm a bit of a gun nut myself. In fact I've used my discretion on several traffic stops and gave a verbal warning rather than a ticket because I was grateful for the driver informing me up front and then chatting about guns with me while I admired their carry handgun.
My training in the academy about legal guns was pretty lacking. I suspect most cops are very poorly trained on legal guns. Most of what I know is self taught. I've heard nightmares (not around here) about cops who order CCW’s out of cars at gunpoint and handcuff and disarm them during the stop just because they identified themselves as legally armed. I think that's horrific and most cops probably agree with me. That's the response for someone who just committed a felony but most cops are so poorly trained about legal guns they don't know anything except high risk disarming. Keep in mind though if I think you match the description for a burglary suspect who just left the scene of the crime you may get a high risk disarming. I'll at least explain why when the dust settles. But you shouldn't get that treatment just because you are a legal CCW.
If you run into one of these cops just comply with everything they tell you to do. Arguing with us on the side of the road will never get you anything and usually tends to escalate the situation even more. If you are treated heavy handed by a poorly trained cop just cooperate. When it's over you can file an official complaint with the department. If you believe that your civil rights were violated then talk to an attorney. Your recourse is after the stop not during it. Always cooperate to avoid escalating the problem.
Although I agree with most of the sentiment in your post, I am looking at my VA permit which is clearly called a “Concealed Handgun Permit”. Above that line it says “Commonwealth of Virginia”
Considering that the VA state police site regarding “Concealed Handgun Permits” also uses that terminology, I’m a little bit suspect about this being from a VA police officer...
I don’t see the CCW term anywhere in the VA state police site after a quick search...
Just saying...
Very good advice. Take extensive notes after the fact. So many people in this country are so wound up I sincerely hope we don't end up having another civil war. If we do, it is going to be very, very bloody.
This is actually the general rule. If you are polite, cooperative, and do what the Cop suggests here, it is very likely that you will only get a warning instead of a ticket... UNLESS you were doing something extraordinarily stupid (80/35 Zone or DWI.)
Agreed!
I also think that many police officers are on the right side of current events.
Considering that the VA state police site regarding “Concealed Handgun Permits” also uses that terminology, I’m a little bit suspect about this being from a VA police officer...
I don’t see the CCW term anywhere in the VA state police site after a quick search...
Just saying...
From the post #31 Roanoke LEO e-mail: “RoaVaPD traffic stop Mason Mill at 13th St Northeast on Oh-Nine Virginia Alpha Bravo Charlie 1-2-3-4, grey Toyota Carolla, one occupant.”
----------------------------
I think the e-mail from the Roanoke LEO is legit.
ROA is the abbreviation for Roanoke. Mason Mill (RD.) does exist and it is in northeast Roanoke city.
CHP is a common abbreviation for California Highway Patrol (Remember the 70's series CHIPs?) Try doing a FreeRepublic search for "chp."
And of course, CHP is also used in a number of states including VA for concealed handgun permit, but CCW seems to be a more widely accepted and used abbreviation.
Bump for other Old Dominion Freepers.
Actually VA does have open carry. Big political movement down there.
Fair enough - you are probably right.
I’m guessing many of the local police officers are not familiar with the actual laws and terminology based upon the number of false arrests and harassment incidents that have occurred in the last year.
City of Norfolk has paid out twice this year for police officer ignorance of the current law regarding open carry for example.
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