Posted on 11/21/2009 7:26:17 PM PST by jveritas
Today healthcare vote in the Senate was so badly represented by many on our side and of course by the media and was blown way out of proportion. In reality it is a meaningless vote. The vote today was only to start the debate and it is absolutely does not guarantee at all that the current bill in the Senate with it current version of public option aka socialized medicine is going to pass. In fact as it stands now this current bill is assured to be defeated because the socialists are not going to get 60 votes for cloture to end the debate and hence they cannot move the bill for a final vote. In other words the bill in its current form is dead.
Senator Lieberman has said so many times, very clearly, and very adamantly that he is going to filibuster an end for the debate as long as it has any form of public option and he also said many times that he was going to vote to allow the start of the debate as he did today. That is why Senator Lieberman has been for weeks the most hated person among the left wing lunatics. Many people misunderstood and misinterpreted what he has been saying and thought that Lieberman did not follow through on what he said he was going to do.
Senator Olympia Snowe has said that she is going to filibuster an end to the debate on this current healthcare bill if it contains the current form of public option. She wants a trigger public option which in practical political terms a meaningless thing that will never be triggered. In fact today she even voted against the start of the debate.
Now some will say that if the socialists do not get 60 votes to end the debate and move the bill for a final vote then they are going to use reconciliation or the so called “nuclear option”. This is very unlikely because for the use of reconciliation the bill has to go back to the budget committee or finance committee where it is going to be watered down significantly and just includes the insignificant trigger public option or a trigger co-op. Even very left wing Senators like Tom Harkin said that reconciliation will be a very bad thing to do.
What is the most likely scenario?
Most probably they are going to be able to pass a healthcare bill that contains a trigger public option or a trigger co-op which in all practical form is a meaningless gesture because it is not going to be triggered at all in the future. This is the bill that will go to Obama to sign it into law, the democrat politicians and their media will celebrate but their left wing lunatic base will go insane in a way that will shock many. The left wing lunatic base wants a strong public option (aka socialized medicine) as a minimum and is very much against a trigger public option or a trigger co-op because they know very well that the trigger means absolutely nothing and when this happens the left wing lunatic base is going to explode in total anger against the democrat party.
I think there’s a lot of ignorance about how these things proceed and about the nature of politics in general. You have to know some of the histories of some of these people. For example, Dorgan comes from a conservative state. His governor is very popular and his term is expiring. There’s talk about his running against Dorgan next year. As it is, Dorgan polls behind the governor of N.D. How do you think he’s going to vote once cloture comes up, knowing he’ll get clobbered in an election if he votes for the bill? He might commit political suicide—but it’s not likely. Bayh is another from a very conservative state. So is Lincoln and so is Pryor. So is Ben Nelson. There’s a lot going on behind the scenes—this is far from a done deal—or an easy one. Check intrade. Last I looked, probability of passage was down to 3.9%.
I admire your optimism, but I don’t share it. I truly hope in future, you will come back and give me a big “I TOLD YOU SO.”
I would welcome it, but sadly, I don’t expect it.
When do we panic? NEVER. WE FIGHT! Panic begets discouragement and defeat. We’re in a cold civil war. This is only one battle. We will win if we stick together and stay fighting mad. But avoid losing your cool, ever.
I appreciate any positives at all....really I do....but ALL of this communist agenda has been pushed thru while people said it would not happen...
It's the early 1940’s and Hitler is unstoppable. He is winning on all fronts and his juggernaut is piercing into Russia. He is destroying everything and anyone.
Moscow is in sight and the Nazi panzer divisions are on the outskirts about to crush the city. And then the overlooked anihilates Hitler. The Russian winter does what no army could do and the Nazis have to retreat and abandon the siege of Russia.
This thread reminds me of that scenario. The Democrats are the Nazis of the 1940’s unstopable and winning everything;yet, I believe that there is a Russian winter that is about to crush them.
It won't be the Republicans. It won't be the tea parties. It won't be the voters.
It will be the dollar. Currency markets are 100 times bigger then all governments put together. The dollar is collapsing at an unprecedented rate. Gold has gone from $700 last November to $1140 now which is a disaster of biblical proportions. It is heading to $2000 no doubt by January 2011 and then way way beyond that. This is making expenditures more and more difficult.
The collapse of the dollar is a day by day event now. the US government cannot stop it and has lost control of the economy. This condition is the democrat's Russian winter. This vote to start the debate is the equivalent of the Nazis being on the outskirts of Leningrad while the Russian winter is freezing everything in place and making victory impossible. Hitler's generals told him not to do it and wait for favorable weather. His hubris engineered his failure.
The democrats should have waited to do this health care bill. Their hubris is now engineering their demise. They are standing outside Moscow about to be defeated. Remember no one could imagine Hitler's demiseduring the Russian campaign. No one can imagine the democrat's demise and it is coming from the dollar's collapse.
The demise of the dollar will crush any hope of moving forward. This is now a day by day event and will dictate retreat to the democrats.
As they retreat, the vacuum is going to usher in the opposition which is not quite in focus just yet.
Pay attention to the currency markets. They are now the puppet masters not the democrats.
Bingo....way too much Prozac being used on this thread ;)
The Dems will ram anything through. Scale it down as far as need be to pass. By then it will be too late. They will simple add all the crap back on after it passes.
It’s a monster turd that will ensure a Euro-pee-on style socialism in America. Conservatives can kiss goodbye any hopes of being elected unless they are just as good at promising the electorate all the health care goodies that the DEMONCRATS are handing out. It’s a disaster. Freedom itself is a stake.
The public option has become too much of the focus of the opponents of Obamacare. We are missing the forest for the trees. If the Dems pass mandatory health insurance and enable government to set the standards as to what is acceptable health insurance, including compulsory insurance for pre-existing conditions, then they will have won. Private insurance premiums will continue to increase, which will result in a public demand for a government option.
Tho perhaps all reconciled bills are subject to nullification after 5 years, what bills with this type of scope have ever been nullified? Seems at the very least we would have to hold conservative majorities in House, Senate, and Pres.
Tho it is good to be optimistic, I would have rather seen the bill defeated today, and hope it will be defeated at next vote—not implemented and then we try to nullify.
It's the early 1940’s and Hitler is unstoppable. He is winning on all fronts and his juggernaut is piercing into Russia. He is destroying everything and anyone.
Moscow is in sight and the Nazi panzer divisions are on the outskirts about to crush the city. And then the overlooked anihilates Hitler. The Russian winter does what no army could do and the Nazis have to retreat and abandon the siege of Russia.
This thread reminds me of that scenario. The Democrats are the Nazis of the 1940’s unstopable and winning everything;yet, I believe that there is a Russian winter that is about to crush them.
It won't be the Republicans. It won't be the tea parties. It won't be the voters.
It will be the dollar. Currency markets are 100 times bigger then all governments put together. The dollar is collapsing at an unprecedented rate. Gold has gone from $700 last November to $1140 now which is a disaster of biblical proportions. It is heading to $2000 no doubt by January 2011 and then way way beyond that. This is making expenditures more and more difficult.
The collapse of the dollar is a day by day event now. the US government cannot stop it and has lost control of the economy. This condition is the democrat's Russian winter. This vote to start the debate is the equivalent of the Nazis being on the outskirts of Leningrad while the Russian winter is freezing everything in place and making victory impossible. Hitler's generals told him not to do it and wait for favorable weather. His hubris engineered his failure.
The democrats should have waited to do this health care bill. Their hubris is now engineering their demise. They are standing outside Moscow about to be defeated. Remember no one could imagine Hitler's demiseduring the Russian campaign. No one can imagine the democrat's demise and it is coming from the dollar's collapse.
The demise of the dollar will crush any hope of moving forward. This is now a day by day event and will dictate retreat to the democrats.
As they retreat, the vacuum is going to usher in the opposition which is not quite in focus just yet.
Pay attention to the currency markets. They are now the puppet masters not the democrats.
From my email
“National Right to Life to Obama and Reid:
You wanted debate? Now you’ll get debate –
on government-funded abortion.
WASHINGTON (November 21, 2009) — The U.S. Senate tonight barely cleared an initial 60-vote procedural hurdle, setting the stage for a 2,074-page health care bill, crafted by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nv.), to move forward to debate before the full Senate. The following statement was issued by the National Right to Life Committee (NRLC), the federation of right-to-life organizations in all 50 states, and may be attributed to NRLC Legislative Director Douglas Johnson.
As National Right to Life has previously noted, Senator Reid’s bill [on page 118] would authorize the federal government to pay for any and all abortions through a huge new federal health insurance program, the “public option,” and also to subsidize purchase of private plans that cover abortion on demand. President Obama and Reid know that the substance of these abortion-promoting policies is deeply unpopular, so they seek to conceal the reality with layers of contorted definitions and money-laundering schemes.
Obama and Reid wanted debate – so now they’ll get debate, on their cloaked provisions that would cover abortion on demand in proposed new government-run and government-subsidized insurance plans.
Obama and Reid are seeking to block enactment of the bipartisan Stupak-Pitts compromise, adopted by the U.S. House of Representatives on November 7 by a vote of 240-194. This amendment would prevent government funding of elective abortion through the proposed “public option,” and would also prevent federal subsidies from paying for private insurance plans that cover elective abortion.
During the weeks ahead, National Right to Life will continue to fight the efforts of President Obama and congressional Democratic leaders to cover abortion on demand in two huge new federal health programs. The Senate bill faces additional 60-vote hurdles in the future. Moreover, a courageous group of pro-life Democrats in the House of Representatives will oppose final approval of health care legislation if the Stupak-Pitts Amendment is gutted or removed.”
This is not “only one battle”, this is THE battle.
...and 1 or 2 votes ends the battle. After that it is only to what degree we are Socialist.
The 2006 amnesty bill, Hagel-Martinez, passed the Senate. It was the Rep controlled House that stopped it.
“I know the legislative process. 1 or 2 votes away from ending debate...after that it’s over. There are no other major hurdles. The Conference bill will pass.”
Sure there are major hurdles. Pelosi and Reid are going to want to keep pro-choice language in the bill. That’ll put the House in a dither and pro-lifers will join Republicans to defeat the conference report. In the Senate Ben Nelson has stated he would vote against the bill if it’s pro-choice. And Pelosi is going to want a public option to appease her left flank demanding it. But that would kill the bill in the Senate. It’s impossible to see how the two chambers can even begin to see eye-to-eye at this point. But who knows?
And just for the record—even if it passes, do you think the states won’t challenge its constitutionality? There are at least ten states prepared to challenge its mandates by citing the 10th amendment. This would definitely be challenged in the SC if it passes. So this is only one skirmish in what’s really a civil war—a cold one.
There will be a healtcare bill passed. The WH and the Dems need it to save face. The only question is what will be in it.
“Pataki is good as well.”
Pataki is a RINO, and I heard a political analyst say he hurt the GOP in New York State.
I agree with your point—that this is destroying the Left. Instead of making liberals stronger, it is exposing their radical agenda. Independents are shifting toward the GOP 2-1. In VA and NJ—a purple and a blue state—the dems were routed. In the generic party preference polls Republicans now out-poll the dems for the first time—by around six points. And Obama is finally below 50% in the most respected polls—which is the dangerous tipping point for a politician. You think moderate Democrats are not taking notice of this and that this won’t effect the health care debate? It’s a debacle—far worse than 1994.
“Sure there are major hurdles.”
No. The only major hurdle is 60 votes to stop debate.
“Pelosi and Reid are going to want to keep pro-choice language in the bill. That’ll put the House in a dither and pro-lifers will join Republicans to defeat the conference report.”
In the end they will fall on their swords and pass the holy grail without abortion rights. They underestand that Socialized medicine is the end game for socialism.
“And Pelosi is going to want a public option to appease her left flank demanding it.”
They can peel off a vote or two with the illusion of “states can opt out” or “trigger” gimmicks. They can comeback to change this later. The important thing is the bill pass...they are socialists, they are committed to the cause.
“do you think the states won’t challenge its constitutionality?”
Once you start socialism, you can’s stop it without violent conflict. There alot of things we do now that our not constitutional.
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