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Agenda 21, Secular Humanism, and the Animalization of Americans
Conservative Underground ^ | 15-Sep-2009 | Linda Kimball

Posted on 09/18/2009 9:22:24 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

The murderous secular humanist religions of Communism and Nazism were spawned by the anti-God/utopian tradition of Revolutionary France. The Black Book of Communism, an 800- page compendium of the crimes of Communist regimes worldwide, graphically details the terror, torture, man-made famine, mass deportations, starvation, and massacres undertaken on behalf of revolutionary utopian ideals. The reality of Communism, which claimed to be an emissary of the Enlightenment, of universal brotherhood, and of happiness for all as envisioned by Gracchus Babeuf, turned out to be not only a sadistic engine for unimaginable evil but also the creator of hells on earth.

The book’s authors point to Communism’s “biological and zoological strain of thinking” as the engine of evil that proved itself to be a most effective means of denying the humanity of Communism’s millions of victims. “This strain of thinking,” explained Stephane Courtois, “is why so many of the crimes of Communism were crimes against humanity, and how Marxist-Leninist ideology managed to justify these crimes to its followers.” (The Black Book of Communism, p. 751)

Biocentrism: the Biological/Zoological Strain of Thinking

Biocentrism or ecocentrism, terms synonymous with today’s sustainable development/global warming crowd, is the “biological and zoological strain of thinking” in disguise. Biocentrism is antithetical to America ’s Judeo-Christian worldview in that it not only reduces man to a soulless ape, but makes his life less valuable than cockroaches, earthworms, spotted owls, trash fish, grizzlies, alligators, and wolves. Those who trace the genesis of ideas, such as Donald Worster, point to Charles Darwin as the most important spokesman for the biocentrism attitude. In short, Darwin ’s theory of evolution, the malignant heart of biocentrism, leads to contempt and even hatred towards humanity.

“Human beings, as a species, have no more value than slugs.” (Earth First! Journal editor, John Daily)

“To feed a starving child is to exacerbate the world population problem.” (Yale professor Lamont Cole)

Biocentrism and its morally-warped system of philosophy and morality thrive right here in America . Communism (multiculturalism/ Cultural Marxism) and its diabolical mother, Secular Humanism, plus its twisted sisters, Postmodernism and Cosmic Humanism (New Age global warming crowd) are now the predominant way of thinking in most of America’s power centers. At the heart of each of these systems beats the black heart of Darwinian biocentrism.

Dr. James Dobson notes, “The Secular Humanist system....has outstripped Judeo- Christian precepts in the universities.... judiciary.... federal bureaucracy, in business, medicine, law, psychology, sociology....arts, in many public schools, and to be sure, in the halls of Congress.” (Understanding the Times, David A. Noebel, p. 7)

Every day in our public schools, America’s children are “animalized” through the teaching of Darwinian evolutionary propaganda. Though some are able to resist this dehumanizing spiritual attack, many more are not. Of those who cannot, some will go on to join the ranks of anti-God, anti-America, anti-human revolutionaries, thereby becoming accomplices in the destruction of the nation that nourishes and protects them. Others will become practical atheists who, having no faith in God, will not fight for a nation founded on Judeo-Christian precepts. From a secular humanist point of view, these are desired outcomes because:

“The only hope for the world is to make sure there is not another United States.” (Michael Oppenheimer, Environmental Defense Fund)

These things are occurring because for nearly two centuries Secular Humanists and revolutionary fellow travelers - having infiltrated and taken control of this nation’s education establishment - incrementally replaced our nation’s founding Judeo-Christian moral and philosophical worldview and history with a revolutionary catechism. The effect of this has been to not only undermine and delegitimize our nation’s traditional ideas and institutions but to also reverse and upend the natural order, all of which is leading to the destruction of our civilization.

“To destroy a people, you must first sever their roots.” (Alexander Solzhenitsyn)

Teaching to this nation’s future leaders, jurists, lawmakers, government workers, teachers, etc., the ideas and philosophies of men and women such as Comte, Marx, Malthus, de Sade, Rousseau, Reich, Freud, Darwin, Nietzsche, Lenin, Stalin, Heidegger, Adorno, Lukacs, Gramsci, Sanger, Marcuse, Dewey, Kinsey, Derrida, and Foucault, for example, has unleashed a devastating wave of corruption, debauchery, political correctness, chaos, pathologies, crime, narcissism, raw powergrabbing, and abandonment of allegiance towards these United States of America, all of which paves the way for the rise of a socialistic, sustainably developed New World Order.

An alternative power structure necessary for deconstructing our Constitutional Republic has been created. This “shadow government” of interlocking relationships and mutually reinforcing agendas consists of, for example, the New Left, the Democratic machine, environmental organizations such as The Nature Conservancy, Sierra Club, Audubon Society, and The Wildlife Federation; big money foundations, such as Heinz, Mott, Blue Moon, Turner, and the Rockefeller Brothers Fund; federal and state fish and wildlife departments, and of course, the United Nations. In hot pursuit of their North American Union project, the power and money hungry Transnational Right aids and abets the destructive process.

With the exception of the dissident voices of “intolerant, racist/haters” like Christians and other true Conservatives, the majority of Americans have passively acquiesced to being told that they are mindless, soulless apes. They also allow their children to be animalized and even told that as apes, they share a common heritage with earthworms. In light of this, the following question bears asking: Why should anyone, let alone the narcissists who are busily deconstructing our nation, respect and serve such a people?

If Antonio Gramsci were alive, he would be gratified by how well his plan for the slow and gradual destruction of America from the inside is working.

Agenda 21: The Utopian Fantasy

Agenda 21 was adopted at the 1992 UN Conference in Rio de Janeiro. This 300-page document contains 40 chapters loaded with recommendations to micro-manage virtually every facet of human existence. Agenda 21 is not a treaty but a “soft-law” policy document that does not require Senate ratification. Some of the key players involved in its production and adoption are Al Gore, Ted Turner, and Maurice Strong. President George H.W. Bush signed it and President Clinton issued Executive Order No. 12852, which created the President’s Council on Sustainable Development.

In his, “Sustainable Development: Transforming America,” Henry Lamb provides us with a vignette of the emerging utopia. Speaking only of America, he says:

“Half the land area of the entire country will be designated ‘wilderness areas’ where only wildlife managers and researchers will be allowed. These areas will be interconnected by ‘corridors of wilderness’ to allow migration of wildlife… Wolves will be as plentiful in Virginia and Pennsylvania as they are now in Idaho and Montana . Panthers and alligators will roam freely from the Everglades to the Okefenokee and beyond.... Transportation between sustainable communities (islands of human habitation)....will be primarily by light rail systems....highways that remain will be super transport corridors, such as the “Trans- Texas Corridor” now being designed....” (Ecologic Special Report, Dec. 1, 2005)

Property Acquisition Schemes

“The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If “Thou shalt not covet,” and “Thou shalt not steal,” were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free.”(John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, Ed., Vol. VI, p.9)

The Wildlands Project, written by Dr. Reed Noss, who is under contract with The Nature Conservancy, is one such scheme. It has never been debated or voted on by elected officials. Nevertheless, it is being implemented through backdoor initiatives. Through its use thus far, 106.5 million acres have been acquired by being designated as wilderness since 1964.

Henry Lamb reports that not only is eminent domain a key “land-taking” strategy but:

“In the West, the Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management are driving ranchers off the land by reducing grazing allotments…people who have recreational cabins on federal land, are discovering that their permits are not being renewed. The Fish and Wildlife Service is forcing people off their land through designations of “wetlands,” and “critical habitat”....” (Lamb, op. cit.)

The biocentric Endangered Species Act makes use of spotted owls, plants, trash fish, alligators, grizzlies, wolves, and more to run people off their land. Within the space of one week in 2006, three young Florida women were attacked by so-called “managed” alligators. All three women died gruesome deaths. “Managed” wolves are likewise useful for terrorizing landowners, especially when said owners have been criminally deprived of the basic right of self defense.

An article entitled, “Wolf Management Program Actions Show Children are Expendable,” in the Wolfcrossing blog speaks of the outrage, despair, and sense of helplessness felt by landowners handcuffed by politically correct Department of Fish and Wildlife regulations that elevate the welfare of wolves over that of people, thus leaving them helpless in the face of marauding wolves.

Sister Flash writes, “Recently a little boy was encircled by Mexican wolves....the Luna pack circled him for more than five minutes.” One month later, wrote Sister Flash, the pack attacked a family dog as it followed its 8-year old owner (a girl) who was going to feed the family's horses. Thirty days later, “the (same) little girl’s beautiful black quarter horse (Six) was trapped in his corral and brutally slaughtered by the same wolves.... (More recently) a small dog named Maggie was attacked protecting her child’s play yard, right off the front porch....” (http://wolfcrossing.org/blog/? p=235)

Not only have the wolves not been removed, but the notorious alpha male - who had been relocated from Arizona to New Mexico for hanging around a schoolyard in Blue, AZ - has been declared “no longer a threat,” by the complicit New Mexico Department of Game and Fish.

“In the beginning, God created....” is the core presupposition on which Western civilization advanced for more than two millennia. Its highest expression is in our Declaration of Independence, where it serves as the ultimate source of our unalienable rights. This presupposition is condemned by most western policy makers and by the UN, all of whom prefer the biocentric view:

“Human happiness, and....fecundity, are not as important as a wild and healthy planet....until such time as homo sapiens should decide to rejoin nature, some of us can only hope for the right virus to come along.” (David Graber, research biologist with the National Park Service)

“....Christianity (has set) humans apart from nature (and) converted the world into a warehouse of commodities for human enjoyment.” (Global Biodiversity Assessment, p. 787)

In a chilling portent of things to come, M. Macnab, a respondent to the Wolfcrossing article, spoke to all Americans when she warned:

“We here in ‘wolf recovery territory’ know all to well what horrible encroachments on our rights can occur when state and federal officials violate their true purpose. Life without basic rights to protecting one’s family and property is not at all pleasant and this careless and lawless disregard for others welfare will, if not checked…become the standard for all.”


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: 1992; agenda21; babeuf; blackbookofcommunism; csd; econuts; eminentdomain; gracchusbabeuf; henrylamb; mauricestrong; moralabsolutes; natureconservancy; northamericanunion; strong; un; wildlandsproject
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

“Thomas More, Thomas More, riding through the glen,
Thomas More, Thomas More, with his band of men, ...”


41 posted on 09/18/2009 12:29:34 PM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Liberty1970

The quotes are quite independent- they are not the script of a play the Founding Fathers took part in- they are from private letters and other documents, written with conviction and intent.


42 posted on 09/18/2009 12:30:29 PM PDT by OldSpice
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To: OldSpice

I would suggest reading books like “On Two Wings” which copiously cite original letters, minutes of meetings and contemporarnious sources about the founders and framers beliefs. No honest reading would place any significant percentage outside practicing Christian belief.

Randian Objectivism as a Rationalist construct-ideology has more in common with the French Enlightenment than with the American Enlightement. I find its followers espousing positions that plain Burkeian conservatives have held for fifteen decades before Rand started selling books and started selling seminar seats.


43 posted on 09/18/2009 12:33:06 PM PDT by KC Burke (...but He has made the trains run on time.)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

Great article......humanize animals—animalize humans. The left has done a pretty good job witnessing what’s going on in California with the ‘Delta smelt’. What was Nietzsche doing in that line up?


44 posted on 09/18/2009 12:35:32 PM PDT by Electric Graffiti (Yonder stands your orphan with his gun)
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To: OldSpice
As is typically the case, your quotes are out of context, and don't support the argument you are trying to make.

— John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, July 16, 1814

Evidence of anti-Catholicism? Yes. Pretty typical, when you consider that colonial and early post-colonial America were overwhelmingly Protestant, and the day and age still lent itself to a good deal of open conflict between sectarians.

Evidence of anti-Christianity per se? No.

John Adams, letter to John Taylor, 1814

Again, a statement address Catholicism, and incidentally, a sentiment which any Baptist in early America would have shared.

John Adams, “this awful blashpemy” that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D Cardiff, What Great Men Think of Religion

At best an evidence of his Deism, not the type of atheism expounded by Ayn Rand.

Thomas Jefferson, letter to Major John Cartwright, June 5, 1824.

Has nothing to do with Christianity at all, except to note the antiquity of the ancient Anglo-Saxon legal system. Not sure why you think this one is relevant at all.

Benjamin Franklin

It's commonly accepted that Franklin was a Deist, which again, does not substantiate your apparent belief that he was a Randian-style atheist.

The Reverend Doctor Bird Wilson

Dr. Wilson is simply incorrect in his assertions. If Washington was "no professor of religion", then why was he baptised by immersion at the hands of his Baptist chaplain, John Gano - a baptism that Washington ASKED FOR? Likewise, John Quincy Adams, who had been President but a short time prior to this "sermon", was also noted for his Christian beliefs.

Sorry, but your arguments simply either don't stand, or else are irrelevant because they don't support the argument you seem to be trying to make. And besides, if you want to play the dueling quotes game, then how about these:

"The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." (John Adams)

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." (John Adams)

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever." (Thomas Jefferson, incidentally suggesting he might have been a bit more theistic than a true Deist)

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." (Thomas Jefferson)

" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." (Charles Carroll)

"God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel." (Benjamin Franklin, quoting the Bible even)

" have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me." (Alexander Hamilton)

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” (John Jay) "What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ." (George Washington)

"Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity....and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." (Samuel Adams)

"A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven." (James Madison)

"“I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism.” “By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds." (Benjamin Rush)

"“If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary.” (Benjamin Rush)

"Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience." (James McHenry)

Clearly, these men were not Randian atheists. The notion that the Founders were all a bunch of atheists is fantasy, and nothing more. Granted, I don't believe them all to have been Christians. I do not think that Jefferson, Franklin, or Madison were. I think Washington, Henry, Jay, and several of the "minor" ones were. Regardless, they all were animated by the sense and understanding that the Christian religion was the best foundation for civil society. Whether by conviction, or simply out of pragmatism, these men sought the promotion of Christian principles.

45 posted on 09/18/2009 1:07:12 PM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (There are only two REAL conservatives in America - myself, and my chosen Presidential candidate)
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To: OldSpice; Alamo-Girl; jimt; spirited irish; Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus; r9etb; xzins
And you are going to make everything rely on a single speech of a single man, one Andrew Dunlap, and derive an entire theory of the Good Society and/or the Just State on that basis?

On a man who evidently brings a full-fledged anti-Christian, even an anti-religious bias to the table?

Well, if this is the way you think you ought to conduct your own "intellectual business," then we must part company.

The way I read it, this passage reflects little more than Dunlap's ad hominum attack on Sir Matthew Hale. I don't see any substantive argument on the part of any substantive issue at work here. Dunlap is so busy trying to destroy his opponent that the issues that evidently divide them aren't even mentioned, let alone seriously engaged.

If you are at all interested in the truth of reality, it seems to me you have to look beyond or below the superficial appearance of things. A "fact" on the periphery cannot shed by itself any light on the substance of that in which it is involved as a peripheral item.

Think of an iceberg: What appears above the surface cannot suffice to explain the phenomenon of the iceberg. To know the complete "system" of the iceberg, you must penetrate below mere appearance, to the depths below.

That's a whole lot of work, right there. Evidently, Dunlap thought he could spare himself the pains simply by destroying his opponent.

We see this sort of thing all the time nowadays, in our own public discourse....

46 posted on 09/18/2009 1:33:02 PM PDT by betty boop (Without God man neither knows which way to go, nor even understands who he is. —Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: betty boop

No, you missed the point of that excerpt- that such arguments are not “new”, and that it echoes the same opinion John Adams, Jefferson, among others, held:

“... the Common Law existed while the Anglo-Saxons were yet pagans, at a time when they had never yet heard the name of Christ pronounced or knew that such a character existed.”

— Thomas Jefferson, letter to Major John Cartwright, June 5, 1824 (see Positive Atheism’s Historical section)

“Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law.”

— Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814, responding to the claim that Christianity was part of the Common Law of England, as the United States Constitution defaults to the Common Law regarding matters that it does not address.


47 posted on 09/18/2009 1:44:30 PM PDT by OldSpice
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Those quotes are independent. There is no "context" that could alter the thoughts expressed by the Founding Fathers in support of their antagonistic stance toward belief in meddlesome higher powers. Those are from private letters, expressing private opinions, in confidence, and away from the public glare; and not from any play the Founding Fathers took part in, that could make them "out of context".

As for the list of quotations in the rest of your post, they are pointless as they are mostly opinions the Founding Fathers held early on in their lives. The quotes I posted reflect their final stance on the issue.

 

George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a Universalist who denied the existence of Hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washington uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.

-- George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)


John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievements" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

-- The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.



Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said: "I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:

"The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."

-- Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.


James Madison, fourth president and Father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense.

 

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."


"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

-- The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.

...

Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the "God" referred to was the "God of Nature", and the laws those "written in the "Great Book of Nature."

-- Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.)

 

48 posted on 09/18/2009 1:57:55 PM PDT by OldSpice
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To: OldSpice; Alamo-Girl; jimt; metmom; spirited irish; Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus; r9etb; xzins; ...
If the 2nd Amendment was truly honoured in spirit, civilians should be able to own, maintain and use jet fighters and nuclear weapons.

Well of course they should, dear OldSpice, and that by Constitutional principle!

But the practical fact of the matter is that jet fighters and nuclear weapons, etc., are beyond the financial means and competence of everybody except the State itself. The State will ALWAYS have an advantage in this regard. And we civilians pay for/fund their privilege in this regard.

So you can wave this red flag all day long if you want to. It has no practical bearing on actual reality. It is a pure abstraction, "all sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Notwithstanding, as it turns out, no citizen nowadays can pass muster with what the Second Amendment requires of us. For, post Miller at least, what the Second Amendment requires is that citizen-held firearms must be "military-style firearms" in order to be protected by the Second Amendment.

You may recall this was the test that Miller failed to satisfy when the Supreme Court heard his case back in 1939. The Court (ironically it seems from today's perspective) found him "guilty" because it held his sawed-off shotgun was not a "military-style firearm."

I gather the Court had never before heard of the gattling gun, et al.

Notwithstanding, in United States v. Miller, the Supreme Court held that WRT private arms in citizen hands, the firearms the Second Amendment protects are preeminently those which are directly comparable to whatever state-of-the-art armaments are in use by the duly-constituted official military forces of the day.

To put this into perspective, Switzerland has long constitutionally required all able-bodied [male] citizens to own, maintain, and know how to operate military-style firearms as a basic duty of citizenship. Upshot: Nobody invades Switzerland. The Swiss citizenry is the "constitutional militia," not any other formal, government-sanctioned military body. (I do believe that Switzerland does not maintain a standing army.)

49 posted on 09/18/2009 2:13:11 PM PDT by betty boop (Without God man neither knows which way to go, nor even understands who he is. —Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: OldSpice
Thanks a lot for your last post, dear OldSpice.

I could say it was illuminating, just to be polite.

But it really wasn't.

For you evidently uncritically prefer the testimony of "experts" (in context or out of context) rather than actually having to perform your own personal analysis/critique of the ideas they advance.

I can love a Thomas Jefferson — but only up to a point. Whatever he said in public, or ultimately thought of himself, he is no god to me.

Could such a statement make any sense to you at all?

50 posted on 09/18/2009 2:21:01 PM PDT by betty boop (Without God man neither knows which way to go, nor even understands who he is. —Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: betty boop
In addition, the "advantage" of those large systems is one of little meaning unless there is a suporting population surrounding the places where the bases for those implements are held.

People who fly and maintian airfraft and missiles...or tanks for that matter...have to have food, fuel, parts, and they have to sleep, etc. as do their familes.

If their entire logistics chain is threatened and impeded by a population armed with 40 million hunting rifles...pretty soon the mechanism that supports those implements grinds to a halt.

Logisitics feeds those large systems and requires a lot of effort...a lot more than an individual rifleman and their weapon.

BTW, betty, please take a look at these two links and let me know what you think:

MY ADVISE TO THE FARMERS IN THE SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY

INDEPENDENT AMERICAN MOVEMENT FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RESTORATION

51 posted on 09/18/2009 2:32:43 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: OldSpice; Alamo-Girl; jimt; metmom; spirited irish; Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus; r9etb; xzins
If we did a good act merely from the love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist?

The atheist is living on "borrowed time," on the legacy of his ancestors, of whose insights and experiences over millennia he has no personal interest or sense of duty to understand, let alone defend, renew, or communicate to others.

That is, when it comes to the renewal of a good society from generation to generation he accepts no personal responsibility at all, which responsibility he in fact utterly repudiates from the get-go. In many cases, atheists believe they cannot advance their own causes unless and until the entire human past (religious, historical, and cultural) has been utterly laid waste, erased from human memory.

He is already a dead man walking — and trying to take down as many others of his own kind with him as he possibly can, to join him in a commonly shared eternal misery for all.

The atheist is a parasite, drawing its life from a culture that its entire being is devoted to draining the life out of. It is a case of protracted suicide, in slow motion. It destroys not only the atheist in the end, but any society in which the atheist voice/mind achieves cultural dominance.

52 posted on 09/18/2009 2:38:24 PM PDT by betty boop (Without God man neither knows which way to go, nor even understands who he is. —Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: betty boop
"The atheist is a parasite, drawing its life from a culture that its entire being is devoted to draining the life out of. It is a case of protracted suicide, in slow motion. It destroys not only the atheist in the end, but any society in which the atheist voice/mind achieves cultural dominance."

Nonsense.

It took the thorough cleansing by the Secular Reformation and the Age of Reason, for religion to be civilised. Before that, men and women were being burnt at the stake, stretched, whipped and decapitated over nonsensical religious dogma.

53 posted on 09/18/2009 2:57:42 PM PDT by OldSpice
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To: Jeff Head; Alamo-Girl; OldSpice; joanie-f; metmom; spirited irish; Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus; ...
If their entire logistics chain is threatened and impeded by a population armed with 40 million hunting rifles...pretty soon the mechanism that supports those implements grinds to a halt.

Which just goes to show that there is no consolidation of governmental power than can possibly happen in a vacuum.

For there is no vacuum to begin with: The American citizenry is armed, and that by God-given right, as further guaranteed by our Constitution.

Though we do not possess fighter jets or nuclear arms does not mean we are helpless. A lot of "effective" little people running around in concerted, or even individual activity can undermine the power of great States. The testimony of history attests to this fact of reality.

But isn't this the very gamble that Obama is taking? That people understand themselves to be generally helpless, vis-a-vis the power of the State? That we are are born needy for what only the State can provide? Isn't this the central premise of the Obama ideology?

Okay. Let's test the truth of that premise, say I.

Obama does not own the truth of reality. Rather, he seems to be its greatest enemy right about now. Certainly, he is working towards reducing the United States of America into a completely ineffectual body in the world, and one so ineffectual that it can no longer defend its own, that is, American strategic interests.

Which boils down to the preservation, the sheer survival of American values and principles: Can they survive the reign of Obama?

We live in an age when the enemies of the United States of America are just as likely to be domestic as foreign. Indeed, the cancer seems to be lodged in the very bosom of the body politic. If it succeeds, even such tinhorn dictators as Chavez, or Ahmadinajad could wipe us out with ease, with impunity.

American is strong because of her ideas, her universal values. If we lose those, America dies.

But Americans will not let that happen without a fight, if need be. Let the world hear this from the lips of a quite average American citizen.

Anyhoot, stay tuned, people. We live in fascinating times. Follow the public arguments. And keep your firearms in well-maintained, operable condition; and know how to use them effectively.

It's always best to prepare for the worst-case scenario, even while hoping and praying that this "worst" will never come.

54 posted on 09/18/2009 4:14:22 PM PDT by betty boop (Without God man neither knows which way to go, nor even understands who he is. —Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: OldSpice; Alamo-Girl; Jeff Head; joanie-f; metmom; spirited irish; Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
A religion which is "civilized" ceases to be a religion. It becomes a paeon of self-congratulation to the man who thunk it up.

Religion is prior to civilization. That is, civilization is the by-product of religion, not its cause.

55 posted on 09/18/2009 4:17:46 PM PDT by betty boop (Without God man neither knows which way to go, nor even understands who he is. —Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: OldSpice; Alamo-Girl; joanie-f; Jeff Head; metmom; spirited irish; Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
It took the thorough cleansing by the Secular Reformation and the Age of Reason, for religion to be civilised. Before that, men and women were being burnt at the stake, stretched, whipped and decapitated over nonsensical religious dogma.

To want religion to be "civilized" is to demand that religion cease to be religious.

Religion is not a promoter of any particular governmental form at all. It promotes a system of moral law. Governments do very well to espouse this moral law as the foundation of their system of justice. And when they don't we see the effects well enough.

History tells the tale. Go look. Go where sovereign nations repudiated God's law, and took up a law formulated by human genius instead.

It is the fate of such regimes to bleed and die. Again, check history in this regard.

In short, please do your homework, OldSpice!

Which may be difficult for you, in the case that your atheism makes you blind to aspects of reality that are vitally alive to other human persons. Like me.

56 posted on 09/18/2009 4:27:39 PM PDT by betty boop (Without God man neither knows which way to go, nor even understands who he is. —Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: KC Burke; Alamo-Girl; jimt; metmom; OldSpice; spirited irish; Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus; r9etb; ..
One of the distinctions the article misses is the difference between the general period of the enlightenment (which helped spawn classical liberal thought in the old Whigs) and that step child imitation, the French Enlightenment.

Dear KC, you raise such a critical point here.

Consider that in the 18th century, there were two great socio/political revolutions on this earth. One happened in America, and the other a decade later in France.

No two revolutions could be more dissimilar!!!

Boiling both down to their fundamental premises, it seems to me the great difference between the American and the French revolutions was that the American Revolution saw itself as a project under God, and kept God; while the French one was avid to destroy Him, to obliterate Him from public consciousness altogether.

Thus the American Revolution — though tragic and costly in terms of lost life and treasure — was by far less bloody than the French one....

Furthermore, the American Revolution "lasted" with the people. We built the American republican system around its core ideas. By contrast, the French one paved the way for the tyrant Napoleon.

If anyone would like to explore these issues in further contemporary detail, I cannot recommend highly enough the classical work by Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.

So I say to my "atheist" friends: Read that. Make your own judgment. Then maybe we can chat again along more fruitful lines than has been the case so far....

Thank you ever so much, dear KC, for your outstanding essay/post!

57 posted on 09/18/2009 4:43:49 PM PDT by betty boop (Without God man neither knows which way to go, nor even understands who he is. —Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: betty boop

“The source of man’s rights is not divine law or congressional law, but the law of identity. A is A—and Man is Man. Rights are conditions of existence required by man’s nature for his proper survival. If man is to live on earth, it is right for him to use his mind, it is right to act on his own free judgment, it is right to work for his values and to keep the product of his work. If life on earth is his purpose, he has a right to live as a rational being: nature forbids him the irrational. Any group, any gang, any nation that attempts to negate man’s rights, is wrong, which means: is evil, which means: is anti-life.”

-Galt’s Speech, Atlas Shrugged

“Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual).”

-“Collectivized ‘Rights,” The Virtue of Selfishness

““Rights” are a moral concept—the concept that provides a logical transition from the principles guiding an individual’s actions to the principles guiding his relationship with others—the concept that preserves and protects individual morality in a social context—the link between the moral code of a man and the legal code of a society, between ethics and politics. Individual rights are the means of subordinating society to moral law.”

-“Man’s Rights,” The Virtue of Selfishness


58 posted on 09/18/2009 5:09:38 PM PDT by Raymann
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To: betty boop
Religion is prior to civilization.

I guess that explains the Dark Ages, the Inquisition and the two bloodiest wars the human race has ever indulged itself in, all in the same place.

Without France, there probably wouldn't have been an America. Most likely wouldn't, actually.

You are viewing history in narrow slices. No one has seen the long-term. Christianity has itself changed, mutated, spliced and spawned into various new religions- much like every other man-made systems of superstition.

59 posted on 09/18/2009 5:17:34 PM PDT by OldSpice
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To: betty boop
Religion is not a promoter of any particular governmental form at all. It promotes a system of moral law.

Hmm, interesting revision.

I mean, the popes from the old days weren't merely indulging in encouraging prostitution and other sins by way of monetary payments for "atonement", and empire-building by allotting regions of the planet to one or the other subjugated states. [Sarcasm!]

60 posted on 09/18/2009 5:21:32 PM PDT by OldSpice
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