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Reducible Versus Irreducible Systems and Darwinian Versus Non-Darwinian Processes (evos censor Behe)
Evolution News & Views ^ | September 14, 2009 | Michael Behe, Ph.D.

Posted on 09/15/2009 8:46:20 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts

Reducible Versus Irreducible Systems and Darwinian Versus Non-Darwinian Processes

Recently a paper appeared online in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, entitled "The reducible complexity of a mitochondrial molecular machine." As you might expect, I was very interested in reading what the authors had to say. Unfortunately, as is all too common on this topic, the claims made in the paper far surpassed the data, and distinctions between such basic ideas as “reducible” versus “irreducible” and “Darwinian” versus “non-Darwinian” were pretty much ignored.

Since PNAS publishes letters to the editor on its website, I wrote in. Alas, it seems that polite comments by a person whose work is the clear target of the paper are not as welcome as one might suppose from reading the journal’s letters-policy announcement (“We wish to provide readers with an opportunity to constructively address a difference of opinion with authors of recent papers. Readers are encouraged to point out potential flaws or discrepancies or to comment on exceptional studies published in the journal. Replication and refutation are cornerstones of scientific progress, and we welcome your comments.”) My letter received a brusque rejection. Below I reproduce the letter for anyone interested in my reaction to the paper. (By the way, it’s not just me. Other scientists whose work is targeted sometimes get the run around on letters to the editor, too. For an amusing / astounding example, see here.)

Call me paranoid, but it seems to me that some top-notch journals are real anxious to be rid of the idea of irreducible complexity. Recall that last year Genetics published a paper purportedly refuting the difficulty of getting multiple required mutations by showing it’s quick and easy in a computer—if one of the mutations is neutral (rather than harmful) and first spreads in the population. Not long before that, PNAS published a paper supposedly refuting irreducible complexity by postulating that the entire flagellum could evolve from a single remarkable prodigy-gene. Not long before that, Science published a paper allegedly refuting irreducible complexity by showing that if an investigator altered a couple amino acid residues in a steroid hormone receptor, the receptor would bind steroids more weakly than the unmutated form. (That one also made the New York Times!) For my responses, see here, here, here, and here. So, arguably picayune, question-begging, and just plain wrong results disputing IC find their way into front-line journals with surprising frequency. Meanwhile, in actual laboratory evolution experiments, genes are broken right and left as bacteria try to outgrow each other.

Well, at least it’s nice to know that my work gives some authors a hook on which to hang results that otherwise would be publishable only in journals with impact factors of -3 or less. But if these are the best “refutations” that leading journals such as PNAS and Science can produce in more than a decade, then the concept of irreducible complexity is in very fine shape indeed.

*************
To the editor:

Reducible versus irreducible systems and Darwinian versus non-Darwinian processes

The recent paper by Clements et al (1) illustrates the need for more care to avoid non sequiturs in evolutionary narratives. The authors intend to show that Darwinian processes can account for a reducibly complex molecular machine. Yet, even if successful, that would not show that such processes could account for irreducibly complex machines, which Clements et al (1) cite as the chief difficulty for Darwinism raised by intelligent design proponents like myself. Irreducibly complex molecular systems, such as the bacterial flagellum or intracellular transport system, plainly cannot sustain their primary function if a critical mechanical part is removed. (2-4) Like a mousetrap without a spring, they would be broken. Here the authors first postulate (they do not demonstrate) an amino acid transporter that fortuitously also transports proteins inefficiently. (1) They subsequently attempt to show how the efficiency might be improved. A scenario for increasing the efficiency of a pre-existing, reducible function, however, says little about developing a novel, irreducible function.

Even as evidence for the applicability of Darwinian processes just to reducibly complex molecular machines, the data are greatly overinterpreted. A Darwinian pathway is not merely one that proceeds by “numerous, successive, slight modifications” (1) but, crucially, one where mutations are random with respect to any goal, including the future development of the organism. If some mutations arise non-randomly, the process is simply not Darwinian. Yet the authors say nothing about random mutation. Their chief data are sequence similarities between bacterial and mitochondrial proteins. However, the presumably homologous proteins have different functions, and bind non-homologous proteins. What is the likelihood that, say, a Tim44-like precursor would forsake its complex of bacterial proteins to join a complex of other proteins? Is such an event reasonably likely or prohibitively improbable? Clements et al (1) do not provide even crude estimates, let alone rigorous calculations or experiments, and thus provide no support for a formally Darwinian process. Their only relevant data in this regard is their demonstration that a singly-mutated bacterial TimB can substitute for Tim14 in mitochondrial transport. While that is certainly an interesting result, rescuing a pre-existing, functioning system in the laboratory is not at all the same thing as building a novel system step-by-random-step in nature.

Biologists have long been wary of attempts to fill in our lack of knowledge of the history of life with imaginative reconstructions that go far beyond the evidence. As I have discussed (5), extensive laboratory evolution studies over decades offer little support for the plausibility of such felicitous scenarios as Clements et al (1) propose. The authors may well be overlooking formidable difficulties that nature itself would encounter.

References

1. Clements A, et al. (2009) The reducible complexity of a mitochondrial molecular machine. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA doi/10.1073/pnas.0908264106.
2. Behe, MJ (1996) Darwin's Black Box :The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution (Free Press, New York).
3. Behe MJ (2000) Self-organization and irreducibly complex systems: A reply to Shanks and Joplin. Phil Sci 67:155-162.
4. Behe MJ (2001) Reply to my critics: A response to reviews of Darwin's Black Box: the biochemical challenge to evolution. Biol Phil 16:685-709.

5. Behe, MJ (2007) The Edge of Evolution: the Search for the Limits of Darwinism (Free Press, New York).

Posted by Michael Behe on September 14, 2009 8:38 AM


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; US: Washington
KEYWORDS: belongsinreligion; creation; evolution; godsgravesglyphs; intelligentdesign; notasciencetopic; science
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1 posted on 09/15/2009 8:46:22 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
Reducible Versus Irreducible Systems and Darwinian Versus Non-Darwinian Processes (evos censor Behe)

Saul, Saul! Your great learning has made you insane!

2 posted on 09/15/2009 8:49:54 AM PDT by the invisib1e hand (hang the Czars.)
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To: GodGunsGuts

On the one hand they consider Behe important enough to refute. On the other hand they are desperate to keep their readers from actually being able to read his response. It doesn’t take a genius to see that the Darwinists are forfeiting on the whole debate. If Behe’s so wrong, why not let readers see his own words and judge for themselves, particularly when you can publish as much work as you want against him to ‘balance’ things?


3 posted on 09/15/2009 8:49:59 AM PDT by Liberty1970 (Democrats are not in control. God is. And Thank God for that!)
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To: metmom; DaveLoneRanger; editor-surveyor; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; MrB; GourmetDan; Fichori; ...

Could there be any more stunning admission that the Evos are running scared than their censorship of Behe’s reply to their lame attempt to answer him?! LOL!


4 posted on 09/15/2009 8:50:56 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
Interesting that Behe forgets to mention blood clotting as an "irreducibly complex" system, since that is his supposed specialty, and he's written books, articles and papers on the subject.

But then again, maybe it's not so surprising, given that his work in the field has been decisively refuted. Here's a hint to you creationists: maybe it's time to give up the ship.

5 posted on 09/15/2009 8:51:29 AM PDT by Alter Kaker (Gravitation is a theory, not a fact. It should be approached with an open mind...)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Not really much to discuss here except the editorial rights of magazines.


6 posted on 09/15/2009 8:52:24 AM PDT by FormerRep
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To: GodGunsGuts

I don’t know why you’re stumping for Behe. He’s not a Young Earth Creationist and doesn’t reject common descent.


7 posted on 09/15/2009 8:53:25 AM PDT by GunRunner
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To: GunRunner; GodGunsGuts
I don’t know why you’re stumping for Behe. He’s not a Young Earth Creationist and doesn’t reject common descent.

GGG presumably thinks Behe is an "lunatic temple of Darwin fanatic," since GGG has repeatedly claimed that geologists, astronomers, cosmologists, etc. -- anybody who doesn't think the earth was formed at approximately 9 am on October 23, 4004 BC -- is a participant in a massive "evolutionist" conspiracy.

8 posted on 09/15/2009 9:00:17 AM PDT by Alter Kaker (Gravitation is a theory, not a fact. It should be approached with an open mind...)
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To: GodGunsGuts

the claims made in the paper far surpassed the data
_______

Interesting comment, given that there is no data for irreducible complexity, as it is a philosophical notion.


9 posted on 09/15/2009 9:01:21 AM PDT by dmz
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To: FormerRep
And it sounds as if Behe’s chief complaint is that Clements, et al didn't write about what he wanted them to write about; i.e. the arguments he has made that he falsely believes demonstrate his position. By saying nothing more than “the authors are wrong, and by the way they didn't feed my ego”, he doesn't meet the criteria for publishing.
10 posted on 09/15/2009 9:14:01 AM PDT by stormer
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To: dmz
Interesting comment, given that there is no data for irreducible complexity, as it is a philosophical notion.

That's a non-sequitur. Regardless of the status of irreducible complexity, the claims made in Lithgow's paper regarding reducible complexity DO, in fact, go far beyond what his data actually supports. I should know, I have a copy of the paper sitting in the bag at my feet as I type this, and have read through it twice at this point. Despite the wild-eyed claims about "reducible molecular machines!!!!!!!", the paper demonstrates nothing of the sort. In fact, the paper attempts to make an argument by analogy on the basis of the following syllogism:

1) The molecular machine which transport proteins through the mitochondrial membranes are made up of one set of proteins.

2) In certain prokaryotic microbes (which are assumed, but never demonstrated, to be evolutionary precursors to mitochondria, which were them "captured" by other cells, and became mitochondria), there are proteins with similar structures.

3) The genome that codes for these proteins could possibly have mutated to start coding for the proteins we see in mitochondria, which then could have adopted a new function (i.e. the mitochondrial transmembrane protein transport).

4) Therefore, they did.

The logic is spurious, and so is the paper. Behe is absolutely right on that account.

11 posted on 09/15/2009 9:17:25 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (We bury Democrats face down so that when they scratch, they get closer to home.)
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To: All

I’m new here, so please forgive my ignorance.

... But is Michael Behe supposed to be a well-regarded scientist in this neighborhood? Back where I come from nobody has heard of him, except for those who are trying to teach this stuff in schools, and those (like me) who would rather they do not.

It’s never been the biggest deal to me, but I’ve always wondered why it is that some people equate conservatism with what Behe is trying to advocate... which is lunatic fringe fake science. Behe and his cohorts are no friend at all to genuine conservatives who appreciate what real researchers have done for our economy.

JG


12 posted on 09/15/2009 9:19:28 AM PDT by JamesGoddard
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To: stormer
For those interested, the abstract of the original paper:

"Molecular machines drive essential biological processes, with the component parts of these machines each contributing a partial function or structural element. Mitochondria are organelles of eukaryotic cells, and depend for their biogenesis on a set of molecular machines for protein transport. How these molecular machines evolved is a fundamental question. Mitochondria were derived from an α-proteobacterial endosymbiont, and we identified in α-proteobacteria the component parts of a mitochondrial protein transport machine. In bacteria, the components are found in the inner membrane, topologically equivalent to the mitochondrial proteins. Although the bacterial proteins function in simple assemblies, relatively little mutation would be required to convert them to function as a protein transport machine. This analysis of protein transport provides a blueprint for the evolution of cellular machinery in general."

13 posted on 09/15/2009 9:21:09 AM PDT by stormer
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To: Liberty1970
Normally, all scientific journals of any kind require formal papers to be peer-reviewed as a validation step prior to publication. Of course we all know this. But it fascinating to see how experimental integrity, peer review, and even 'research' directed at the right questions fall away when the sacred cow has to be preserved. The blatently obvious attitude is 'Just please throw something - anything - up against the wall so we can say "Behe has been discredited."'
14 posted on 09/15/2009 9:21:40 AM PDT by alancarp (Obama: treat the unborn with AT LEAST as much respect as you do terrorists!!)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

I’ve read the paper. They were examining analogues of mitochondria in prokaryotes. Their conjecture about whether it could have led to internalizing membrane bound energy production is just that. Nice in theory, hard to prove. The conclusions section and the abstract are a bit touch and go but the methods are nicely arranged. They should have more properly titled the paper along the lines of Modeling Mitochondrial Analogues in Prokaryotes.


15 posted on 09/15/2009 9:27:21 AM PDT by FormerRep
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To: alancarp
The blatently obvious attitude is 'Just please throw something - anything - up against the wall so we can say "Behe has been discredited."'

And that's exactly what was done. Looking completely aside from the crevo issue, the Lithgow paper is simply garbage. It is basically one long, loose argument from analogy. The guy even SAYS at one point that he is speculating - HIS word, not mine.

Unfortunately, much of the science establishment in America operates this way - "science" is defined more by what is politically correct and ideologically vetted, rather than by what is actually empirically demonstrable. It's a sad commentary on the state of science education in America that you have even many supposedly conservative FReepers on here who stump for this kind of paper as "evidence" for evolution, without even understanding just how poor the actual science in the paper really is.

16 posted on 09/15/2009 9:28:22 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (We bury Democrats face down so that when they scratch, they get closer to home.)
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To: Liberty1970

17 posted on 09/15/2009 9:33:05 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: JamesGoddard
Behe is not a well regarded scientist to anybody except those who wish to present a Trojan Horse of creationism to sneak it past the Constitution.

And yes, the science that Behe and his supporters attack is and will continue to be a great boon to our economy.

Meanwhile creationism and I.D. have yet to contribute anything useful to science.

18 posted on 09/15/2009 9:38:10 AM PDT by allmendream (Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be RE-distributed?)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

[[3) The genome that codes for these proteins could possibly have mutated to start coding for the proteins we see in mitochondria, which then could have adopted a new function (i.e. the mitochondrial transmembrane protein transport).

4) Therefore, they did.]]

titus- this is the exact same hting that Miller did when he supposedly ‘Decisively refuted’ Behe’s claim of ireducibly complex blood clotting. Miller attempted to ‘deconstruct’ complex blood clotting, and htne attempted to show how certain functions of clotting COULD HAVE ‘naturally evolved’, but Miller’s explanation was so silly and inept that he apparently didn’t realize he was making hte case for intelligent design- Miller proceeded to suggest UNATURAL processes that would HAVE to take place in order for complex blodd clotting to ‘occure naturally’ He carefully and unaturally isolated certain cells, inveneted unatural processes, and viola- complex blood clotting COULD HAVE ‘occured naturally’ lol. Miller brilliantly succeeded in demonstrating the need for an intelligent designer, and brilliantly succeeded in demonstrating that irreducibly complex systems are just that- irreducibly complex, and he brilliantly showed that nature, left to itself, is not capable of creating the elements needed to produce irredicibly complex structures and systems- So yeah, Nature COULD HAVE created irreducibly compelx blood clotting IF there was an intelligent designer behind hte scenes artifically manipulating natural processes lol


19 posted on 09/15/2009 9:51:25 AM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: Alter Kaker

Behe doesn’t need to be perfect to be useful. And since he is respectful of differing points of view, I am willing to agree to disagree agreeably with him on issues such as the age of the Earth, common descent, etc. And while I agree with Irreducible Complexity as far as it goes, it doesn’t go nearly far enough IMHO, as all life is comprised of an irreducible structure that cannot be explained by Darwin’s mindless creation myth.


20 posted on 09/15/2009 9:52:21 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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