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Der Spiegel - other nations helped Germany in Holocaust
Warsaw Business Journal ^
| 20th May 2009
Posted on 05/20/2009 1:55:14 PM PDT by lizol
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To: Recovering Ex-hippie
I don’t know how old you are but fundamentalist Christians have been supporting Israel a lot longer than 10 years. How could they not? They see it as the fulfillment of biblical prophecy. I’d say they supported it since at least 1948. British fundamentalists supported it a lot longer than that. Remember Lord Balfour? Check the wiki entry on Zionism. There is a section on Christian support for Israel.
121
posted on
05/20/2009 4:47:52 PM PDT
by
Belasarius
(Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward. Job 5:2-7)
To: lizol
For that matter President Rosevelt also helped. Hitler send a shipload of Jews to the U.S. and Rosevelt and the Democrats would not let them in. But yet the Jews worship the Democrat Party.
122
posted on
05/20/2009 4:50:24 PM PDT
by
sport
To: lizol
The main headline translates as "Partners. European associates in murdering Jews"
Actually it translates as "Accomplices. Hitler's European helpers in murdering Jews". There's a difference, you know, and the Warsaw Business probably chose a tendentious translation intentionally / to prove a point.
123
posted on
05/20/2009 5:00:53 PM PDT
by
wolf78
(Inflation is a form of taxation, too. Cranky Libertarian - equal opportunity offender.)
To: muawiyah
I accept your explanation. The author wasn’t a general. I do recall now, without digging the book out, that they withdrew through Norway. The book didn’t have a great focus on the strategic level and whether or not they really wanted to go.
The Germans who withdrew weren’t destroyed. I think they left in pretty much good order. In a war that claimed millions and chewed up whole divisions in days the loss of Finland didn’t cost them much in terms of casualties. Loss of a strategic mineral asset wouldn’t have been a good thing but all of your points about nickel were new and interesting to me.
You would probably have to lay the unit diaries down side by side to get an idea of what really happened. My anchor point for judging this is the Das Reich at Normandy.
When comparing the French and German stories about the effectiveness of the resistance in delaying the 2nd SS Panzer Das Reich divisions arrival at the Normandy beach head you’ll find quite a difference in the two sides understanding of the events. The Germans report trivial losses and delays caused by the French while complaining about allied air attacks and mechanical breakdowns. The French believe (or claim) they really whupped the SS. They got Oradour-Sur-Glane for their trouble.
That’s not to say that the Finns weren’t great soldiers. I just think they showed most of their military prowess in fighting against the Russians. I wouldn’t compare what they did to the Russians and against the Germans in anything like equal terms.
124
posted on
05/20/2009 5:09:15 PM PDT
by
Belasarius
(Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward. Job 5:2-7)
To: lizol
First the Germans tried to create an image, that they were victims of the WW2 - as much as the European nations enslaved by them.
Nobody did that. Germany is guilty of starting the war. That there were a number of German "victims" (besides Germans who happened to be jews) doesn't change that (Russian soldiers certainly didn't ask the women they raped if they had been anti-Hitler).
Now - theyre all eager to share responsibility for Holocaust, claiming that the Poles were equally guilty.
Maybe you should read the original Spiegel article in the original German (and not some hack translation) to find out if it really did that. Yes, there were some Polish collaborators (I think some Polish historian said that the deaths of 20.000 jews or so can be attributed to denunciation by Poles, which isn't a high number), which also doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of Poles were victims plain and simple.
Maybe Poland will have to pay some compensation to the families of German polizisten und soldaten killed during Warsaw uprising?
So now you're quoting PiS bullsh*t?
125
posted on
05/20/2009 5:12:28 PM PDT
by
wolf78
(Inflation is a form of taxation, too. Cranky Libertarian - equal opportunity offender.)
To: muawiyah
The flaw is, however, that NONE of these "allies" would have participated if they hadn't first been conquered by Germany!
That is the very crux of the matter / the most important point. And yet at the same time it opens the door to another immensely complicated issue: individual guilt. Because of the question: Does that also go for the German soldier drafted against his will?
126
posted on
05/20/2009 5:16:18 PM PDT
by
wolf78
(Inflation is a form of taxation, too. Cranky Libertarian - equal opportunity offender.)
To: lizol
Whats new, is that its the Germans trying to raise that issue.
Well, the article is rather a reaction to the whole Demjanjuk issue.
127
posted on
05/20/2009 5:18:04 PM PDT
by
wolf78
(Inflation is a form of taxation, too. Cranky Libertarian - equal opportunity offender.)
To: lizol
Germans give the French Dutch and Belgians a pass while dumping on the Poles. Some things never change.
To: lizol
Germans give the French Dutch and Belgians a pass while dumping on the Poles. Some things never change.
To: SolidWood
Belgian, Dutch and French collaboration is fine, Poles however are particulary evil?
Or could it be that the Polish media gives the impression that the article singles out Poles? Because the original article never makes such a claim. To quote from the Spiegel article:
Historian Feliks Tych estimates that some 125,000 Poles rescued Jews without being paid for their services. It's clear that the perpetrators always made up a small minority of their respective population.
130
posted on
05/20/2009 5:24:26 PM PDT
by
wolf78
(Inflation is a form of taxation, too. Cranky Libertarian - equal opportunity offender.)
To: Pontiac
Demjanjuk was no way an "SS Officer." Basically he was a low level flunky. Released KGB records after the fall of the USSR exonerated him from being Ivan the Terrible too, which is why Isreal released him back to the States.
To: dfwgator
You do realize that Poland is Israel's strongest ally in Europe today?
When it comes to mere words, certainly. When it comes to money, technology and military equipment, that would be Germany (second only to the US).
132
posted on
05/20/2009 5:56:19 PM PDT
by
wolf78
(Inflation is a form of taxation, too. Cranky Libertarian - equal opportunity offender.)
To: lizol
I think the main problem is twofold:
Firstly, "Nazis behaving badly" is just not a good story (Captain obvious strikes again). Polish collaborators or Israeli neo-Nazis, now that's juicy.
Secondly, there's the politics of indignation. Yes, the Spiegel article should be criticized for being morally ambiguous. It should have given more context. But it doesn't single out "the Poles" as "the perpetrators", like some Polish media outlets claim. PoS leader Kaczynski's outrage is self-serving, he hopes to get votes out of it or to shame the Germans into some concession on the EU stage.
133
posted on
05/20/2009 6:05:41 PM PDT
by
wolf78
(Inflation is a form of taxation, too. Cranky Libertarian - equal opportunity offender.)
To: Recovering Ex-hippie
BTW, this article was meant for all the Eastern euorpean countries that want to enter the Nato group...it really has a sinister subplot that has nothing to do with Hitler or the Poles! Perhaps, I don't know the NATO politics. And I think NATO has outlived it's usefulness anyway. The underlying Der Spiegel article is here, the essential pitch being OK, we came up with the idea, but plenty of individuals both actively participated or looked the other way. Which is true, even in Poland, but to blame nations, and the lead paragraph in the article states But the collusion of other European countries in the Holocaust has received surprisingly little attention until recently. is another thing. Perhaps if Hitler hadn't planned on enslaving Poles, a collaborationist government would have been formed, but it wasn't, so the charge falls short. IMO it's just a case of sure, we did it, but others did too. BTW, I don't think of them as a nation, but along with Poland, Denmark and Finland, I should have included the Vatican as not collaborationist regiems. And shame on the Brits for barring immigration to the Jewish homeland, their obligation under their League of Nations Mandate. Not a proud time for Europe, but it's not right to deflect blame.
134
posted on
05/20/2009 6:07:38 PM PDT
by
SJackson
(A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity, S. Freud)
To: Belasarius
“I dont recall that they actually managed to recruit enough of any to form an entire division “
Not only did the French form an entire division, Hitler picked the French SS division to protect his Berlin Bunker against the final attack by the Soviets.
Unlike how the French fought to defend France, these French soldier died valiently.
135
posted on
05/20/2009 6:14:48 PM PDT
by
Jewbacca
(Yes, I am very hairy and good with small arms.)
To: lizol
THANK YOU for your excellant, articulate post. You obviously are very knowlegeable in this area of history.
I don’t think we are really in disagreement, we are probably more in agreement about these issues.
To: Belasarius
I take back the “10 years”, but I would say the open, direct and very vocal support has not been THAt long in the Christian community. that is not to say that there were not important Christians over the years who publically supported Jews.
To: SJackson
I viewed this focus on the “accomplices” as NOT shifting the blame at all , but bringing to light , yes again, that it is simplistic to ignore the world wide anti semitism that existed during this era.
If we JUST look at the Germans ( who with their shame had not dared to write such an article until now ) we avoid our human “complicity” in evil roaming through the world.
It really goes to the core of Christianity that “none of us are without sin” and that Jesus came to ‘save us from our inherent sinfullness” and to present a victory over ALL evil.
I appreciate your reasoned and intelligent response to my post.
The article, interestingly enough, brings forth the whole discussion of the Jewish Question...which is now painfully at the heart (again) of the Israeli situation. So in a way, with this article, the Germans perhaps are calling all of the world to focus again that the globe is ignoring Israel’s plight.
To: All
139
posted on
05/20/2009 6:47:51 PM PDT
by
wolf78
(Inflation is a form of taxation, too. Cranky Libertarian - equal opportunity offender.)
To: Recovering Ex-hippie
I viewed this focus on the accomplices as NOT shifting the blame at all , but bringing to light , yes again, that it is simplistic to ignore the world wide anti semitism that existed during this era. You could be right, and I can't disagree with anything you said. I focused on collusion of other European countries, but it's a popular magazine, and I suspect the intent of the article is to stir up interest in the upcoming trial
140
posted on
05/20/2009 6:48:48 PM PDT
by
SJackson
(A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity, S. Freud)
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