Posted on 03/20/2009 7:59:40 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
In a recent book review, Jerry Coyne, professor of ecology and evolution at the University of Chicago, admitted that the secular worldview of macroevolution (the development of complex life from “simpler” forms) is at odds with Christian faith...
(Excerpt) Read more at icr.org ...
bump
Looks like the author is a reverse-creationist. He’s wants to analyze faith using scientific methods, but he can’t seem to see the evidence right in front of his face.
It’s simple enough to look at the evidence of the behavior of Christian societies versus non-Christian societies.
Christian (and recently Christian) societies are more tolerant, provide more charity, and are significantly more civilized than the non-Christian ones.
It’s ironic that most of these either-or science types don’t see this.
Certainly I believe that to be true. The great poet T.S. Eliot put it this way: "Man lives at the intersection of time and timelessness."
From our human viewpoint, time is serial time, irreversibly moving from past to present to future. Yet a single act of human intellection typically involves all three at once. So there is a sense of our experience of time which is not a "serial" progression. We can think of this "time" as not only non-serial, but as the stable center and context in which human experiences of past, present, and future can be "put on the table" all at once, thus to be integrated and analyzed for further meaning. Relative to the temporal serial flow, this "time" does not change.
Thus extrapolating from our own cognitive processes, we see the need for "two times": a time that relates to that which changes (including future time that has not yet been realized), and a time that doesn't change. To me, this is analogous to the relationship of Time (changeable) and Eternity (changeless) — the Jewish notion of eternity as "unlimited duration throughout time." In other words, on my interpretation Eternity is the permanent, unchanging context in which time and all temporal processes move.
Thank you so very much, dearest sister in Christ, for your beautiful, beautiful essay/posy!
"Timing" does seem to trump time in essence..
In that sense time does not exist but timing does..
The timing of the moment.. is reality..
Oddly, I conceptualize "time" in exactly the reverse order than that given in your above description, dear brother in Christ. I.e., I take your description to propose: (1) reality first; (2) as produced by timing in irreversible flow; and (3) then, in last place, along hobbles the very idea of "time" as somehow the product of reality and "timing."
It seems to me "timing" only seems to trump "time in essence" [in your meaning: eternity??? timelessness???] because human beings are so tied to their physical experience that they cannot see that neither "time" nor "timing" is ultimately physical. Phenomenal, for sure; but physical — not.
That is not to say that time cannot be measured. The measurable aspect of time is necessarily an indispensable part of any scientific investigation of reality. And yet even the scientists — especially the physicists — nowadays have been heard to complain that presently-constituted human notions of "time" may be wholly inadequate to the full explication of reality.
How can there be a notion of "timing" without reference to a more fundamental notion of "time" itself? "Timing" would seem to imply the prior existence of a criterion that is not itself subject to "timing."
Just some more maunderings, stray thoughts....
Thank you ever so much for writing, dear brother in Christ!
And thank you ever so much, dearest sister in Christ, for pinging me to D-fendr!
Me being nice won’t get Santa to come to your house.
If Santa thinks I'm not being nice, tell him to come talk to me about it, and we'll get it sorted out.
True but I'm talking about timing not time.. Timing may not be measurable.. When talking of time you must get into much IF'n.. If'n this or that.. Eternity and infinity are hard to get your mind around.. But one thing seems possible to me.. If eternity future is possible then eternity past must also be possible.. Eternity seems to trump time.. On the otherhand when talking about time.. then what is NOW?..
Now.... could be several things depending what time seems to be..
Is Now persistent even obstinate timing?..
My proposition is that belief in scientific theory and faith in God are different things, though belief is used as a synonym.
I haven’t touched doctrinal differences, they belong in a different thread.
But, just to juice the conversation, there is a wide spectrum of Muslim doctrine - nowhere near as large as the spectrum of Christians, but still significant.
Whether Muslims, or Christians, or whatever you may label someone, has true faith, I leave to God.
I wonder if you, hosepipe, are looking at "timing" as an eternal now?
> Why are so many so certain that God would not have used evolution for his creation process?
Christians believe in Jesus Christ. He is documented in “The New Testament”. He clearly believed the “Old Testament” which gives a clear timeline from the first man and woman, and provides geo-historical information such as the global flood.
In Genesis (in the Old Testament) it is told how the first man and woman sinned. They were perfect before that. It is not known how they could have sinned, being sinless. But it is related that they did. God had warned them that death would come if they sinned. Since they had immortal souls, their physical death (while terrible) would not end their consciousness. Unfortunately having sinned they would be separated from God forever. But God promised that He would take their sins from them, in Jesus. This is what happened between Good Friday (death) and Easter (resurrection).
Evolution not only posits a timeline that would tend to make that of the Bible irrelevant - much worse, it builds everything on death. Millions of years of death without regard to sin and judgement. That is not what the Bible says. Christians believe in Jesus Christ, who is God and man at one time. The only real information on Jesus is in the Bible. Jesus clearly believed the Old Testament.
Because that's an oxymoron. By definition, the evolutionary process is undirected and unguided. If intelligence was part of it, it wasn't evolution, it was Intelligent Design.
Nope.. just speculating.. In my sandbox speculation is a good thing.. Wonder what God actually "is"... I'm not too clear about what "I" actually am.. I like to play with what is spirit?.. I think I may know what flesh is.. Spirit seems to transcend this dimension.. If I have eternal life now.. then eternal life must start NOW... Brings up (to me) the matter of timing.. Time must not be so important if you have eternal life.. You know, wont die..... ever..
Meaning current timing and future timing must be equally important.. Am I dealing with the current timing well?.. Would be the question.. Seeing life as a matter of timing not linear time intrigues me.. Timing can/would always be important wherever you are in whatever state you would be in.. like that..
The eternal NOW... what a concept?..
Well, I believe the NT and the OT. I believe in the divinity of Christ and the Atonement of Christ. But I still see the possibility for the compatibility of evolution and those faiths.
There are possibilities that one does not ordinarily think of. For example, is it possible that it is Moses’ vision of the creation that lasted seven days, not the creation itself? The vision being a “fast forward” vision of the process? That would indicate a process much longer that seven days.
Also Adam was expelled from the garden. Does that mean that he had a special existence in the garden and there was another type of world existing simultaneously outside the garden? Perhaps death and evolution had been taking place outside the garden for millions of years.
I just think there are possibilities that prevent us saying categorically that evolution definitely did not factor into God’s creative process.
"Eternal Now" in Zen Buddhism is living in the moment - which the New Agers take up as something akin to "if it feels good, do it."
However, that was not the meaning I intended.
In Jewish mysticism, "Eternal Now" means that all of time (past, present, future) is "present" to God.
Also in Jewish mysticism as well as some Christian belief, it is the awareness of timelessness while yet in the flesh.
In post 624, betty boop quotes T.S. Eliot: "Man lives at the intersection of time and timelessness."
And there are levels of awareness of this being at the intersection between time and timelessness. Some may sense the moment by logic. And some may sense timelessness but secondary to a sense of time passing, an arrow of time.
And still others' sense of timelessness surpasses their sense of time passing.
I am one of the latter, I am more aware of being alive in timelessness than I am of being alive in the flesh:
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. - Galatians 2:20
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.