Posted on 02/21/2009 6:03:46 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1).
The question of the age of the earth has produced heated discussions on debate boards, classrooms, TV, radio, and in many churches, Christian colleges, and seminaries. The primary sides are:
*Young earth proponents (biblical age of the earth and universe of about 6,000 years)1
*Old earth proponents (secular age of the earth of about 4.5 billion years and a universe about 14 billion years old)2
The difference is immense! Let’s give a little history of where these two basic calculations came from and which worldview is more reasonable...
(Excerpt) Read more at answersingenesis.org ...
If you can't live to my terms of your existence which you accepted, I hereby retract your existence.
Are you going to pout and stomp your feet, too?
Still, let's attack the problem from your perspective. Assume, arguendo, that you exist on the terms you stated -- that you did, in fact, exist outside the timespan that I have defined.
And again, we arrive at the same place: the problem is not with your existence, but rather with the timescale that I have defined.
The result is the same as before: the "young Earth" argument is utterly dependent on the assumption that the universe fits within a human-defined timescale.
[[Ridiculous and blasphemous. You make up your own Bible to condemn those who disagree with your spurious exegeses.]]
Alright- your ignorant little statement has earned you an ignore award. Apparentlyyou don’t care to discuss anyhtign in an intellectually honest manner- keep pointing htat finger of condemnation- it’s quite amusing actually. You’ve intentionally misrepresented what I said, why I said it, and as such- I’m not about to continue discussing anythitng with someone who isn’t honest enough to address what was actually said- IF at any point you want to step it up a bit, and discuss actual issues raised, instead of falsely accusing and intentionally misrepresentign what I said- then by all means, feel free to do so, but if not- then good bye kid! Have a nice day!
You say normal earth day of 24 hrs. must be the meaning because that is one of meanings of “day” and since day means 24 hrs. that must be the meaning in the account, a kind of circular reasoning.
If the words “Evening and Morning” indicate a solar time period it would be the night as dusk to dawn, which is the meaning in Hebrew of those words as follows:
““`ereb “evening”
eh’-reb
from ‘`arab’ (6150); dusk:—+ day, even(-ing, tide), night.
boqer “morning”
bo’-ker
from ‘baqar’ (1239); properly, dawn (as the break of day); generally, morning:—(+) day, early, morning, morrow.”
That does not describe a 24 hr. day but certainly does fall within the definition of the term “day”.
Hence there is no reason NOT to use the word day for a period of time longer of shorter than 24 hrs. And Genesis does just that.
That was the point of Paul's comments in Hebrews, that that 7th. day had NOT ended, that it continued on in Moses’ liftime, in David's, and in Paul's own lifetime.
Furthermore since God's 7th. day, shabath, was still running Christians could enter into it. They could not enter into “Today” when it was past as it would have been if a 24 hr. period. That that 7 th. “day” had not yet ended is in agreement with Genesis.
Reading into the Genesis account a 24 hr. period for “day” is neither reasonable nor justified by the meanings of evening or morning or the explanation (not alteration) of Paul's writing to the Hebrews.
In fact, those argue against such a reading.
“The word day in the Bible carries a number of meanings, depending on the context.”
Agreed. You choose the 24 hr. meaning for the creative “day” though nothing in the context would suggest that “straightforward”, literal meaning.
“However, when the word day means something OTHER THAN a normal earth day it is modified by other time indicators.”
Not so. Right there in Genesis light is called “Day” with no time indicators. Is this “Day” then 24 hrs.? More? Less?
Gen. 2:4, “This is the history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created in the DAY...”
Day is 24 hrs.? More, less?
Gen. 5:1, “This is the book of Adam's history, In the DAY of God's creating Adam...”
Day is 24 hrs.? More, less?
Phil. 1:6, “...until the DAY of Jesus Christ.”
Day is 24 hrs.? More, less?
Ps. 37:13, “..his DAY will come.”
2 Cor. 6:2 (Isa. 49:8), “Now is the DAY of salvation”.
Gen. 2:17, “For in the DAY you eat from it, you will positively die”.
None of these have time indicators and none refer to a 24 hr. day period.
Thus this statement is wrong:
“However, when the word day means something other than a normal earth day it is modified by other time indicators.”
And the statement that follows it is also wrong since whether a number is ordinal (a setting in rank) or cardinal (refering to the number its self, how many), has nothing to do with the qualities of what is being numbered:
“God does just the opposite. He modifies the word day with cardinal and ordinal numbers, followed by evening and morning, to make it absolutely clear that we are not to confuse the time periods involved with expanded or indefinite periods of time.”
Cardinal or ordinal has nothing to with the LENGTH of the time periods, whether one hour or a billion years hence how God's motives are shown here is unclear.
“Nothing in what Paul says in Hebrews 4:4,5 changes the fact that God rested on the 7th day.”
That was never in question. In fact, the word (day) Paul uses in Hebrews 4:4 when quoting Genesis 2:2,3, is the Greek word, “hemera” which has several meanings of time, a day, daylight, an indefinite period of time, years, etc.
His words do not indicate he viewed the “day” of Genesis as a 24 hr. period. Hence a literal reading of day is not at all straightforward, it is not supported by the meaning of the words used nor the rest of the Scriptures.
(emphasis above mine)
The notion that religion is kept out of public schools is utter hogwash. What is not permitted is singular endorsement of a particular religion, which is what you two (metmom and tpanther) seem to be upset about.
You seem to be suffering from a profound disconnect from reality.
www.catholicleague.org
www.thomasmore.org
www.aclj.org
If there’s one religion under all out assault in this country it’s Christianity.
It’s being systematically and openly attacked and singled out in public, including public schools across the board.
Just some of the insanity off the top of my head:
Lawsuits from Michael Newdow upset with God, sued (via hijacking his own daughter btw) to get God taken out of the pledge and IGWT off our coins. He thinks his being offended by God trumps the rights of the majority that’s not.
A principal threatened legal action against a student if he dared thanked Jesus at graduation.
The cities of Los Angeles and Las Cruces New Mexico were sued because they had Christiuan crosses in their town logos. I guess had the god-hating lunatics been successful, they’d have demanded Las Cruces change it’s hundreds years old name, as it means “the crosses”.
New York City schools banned Christmas trees, while menorrahs and other religions got complete free passes.
Myriad lawsuits exsit to ban or re-install already banned nativity scenes all across this once great country.
And if this all isn’t bad enough, Christian-hating loons have sued to get a cross removed from a cemetery of all places! (Mt. Soledad, San Diego) and a cross removed from a chapel at William and Mary.
In our very own school district, the Georgia ACLU threatened legal action to get the word “Christmas” banned from the school’s calendar, a national holiday btw, and like a tent the school board folded, without a single parent being notified.
It’s just not smart to spread anti-Christian propoganda on a PRO-Christian website.
It tends to stick out like a sore thumb.
A big smelly festering infected sore thumb.
“- others can ignore it if htey like- but like God said- they will be without excuse when the judgement day roll around.”
What exactly did I miss about that line? It appears you said that anyone who doesn’t agree with your Earth aging principles will “be without excuse” at the Final Judgement. That implies that there will be negative consequences. What do you think the consequence will be? A stern talking to? A good finger wagging?
In addition, I’m not sure I see where “God said” anything about disagreeing with young Earth doctrines.
BTW, I’m not arguing for Scientism, or Darwin or evolution or anything. I really don’t care what tools were used to get me here. I still have to pay my mortgage.
Any evos who disbelieve that religion is being kept out of schools, is free to ask to have their name put on the *Another Reason to Homeschool* ping list. I’ll put them on; the list is open to anyone.
The list is pinged to threads that deal with that topic fairly regularly.
So what you're telling me is that someone is stopping you from:
-- practicing your faith;
-- going to the Church of your choice;
-- listening to and watching any of the ubiquitous dedicated Christian radio, television, and internet sites that broadcast free from any interference;
-- going to any of the hundreds of dedicated Christian bookstores available;
-- reading any of the hundreds of dedicated Christian magazines and books available in the marketplace;
-- personally speaking about your religious faith on street-corners, in the public square, or in your campaign for public office (heck, it has become practically mandatory that you advertise your your Judeo/Chrisitan piety to get elected to office in this country);
-- giving your money to any of the thousands of Churches, Christian charities, or Christian advocacy groups of your choice (including the three you listed);
-- availing yourself of the legal process to protect your religious rights (you'll note that lawsuits impinging on Christian priorities are not known for their actual success);
-- sending your children to any of the hundreds of parochial and private religious schools available, or home schooling your children in whatever religious tradition you choose;
-- having your children actually avail themselves of the bible courses and the myriad religious clubs and organizations available in public schools if that is where they are receiving their education;
-- etc., etc., etc.
It’s being systematically and openly attacked and singled out in public, including public schools across the board.
Christian advocacy groups (well funded, independent, and operating without the least interference) are quite successful in the occasional lawsuit that comes down the pike concerning nativity scenes, Christmas trees, the pledge of allegience, and other sundry public-Christian-imagery cases. Perhaps you hadn't noticed.
And it is rather telling that the few, unsourced "examples" you provide are the exact same ones that are trotted out year after year as proof of universal Christian "persecution." Why, in a country this size, are these same "examples" perpetually being re-dealt by the "we're persecuted" crowd? Could it be that there just isn't all that much actual "persecution" going on?
It’s just not smart to spread anti-Christian propoganda on a PRO-Christian website. It tends to stick out like a sore thumb. A big smelly festering infected sore thumb.
Look, chucklehead, I'm a Christian and actively involved in my Church's very public community projects. I support entirely the visible, public presence of Christianity. And it is not "anti-Christian" to point out that a vocal minority of self-righteous, histrionic Christians ply a "persecution" trade at every opportunity on the thinnest reeds imaginable.
You have no idea what religious persecution actually is, and it is downright embarrassing to see folks like you posing as an oppressed minority. Grow up.
cizenec- you know darn well I am referrign to those who claim to be Christians but who are NOT and who wish to deceive people into htinking Evolution, old earth etc are’compatible with’ God’s word. I made it VERY clear in my previous posts that I was NOT referrign to those TRUE Christians who are deceived by old earth arguments, or even macroevolution- I made that VERY clear in my previous post- so please STOP INTENTIONALLY MISREPRESENTING what I said and hwy I said it- your tactic is an intellectually DISHONEST tactic- and I won’t stand for it- Comprende? You are taking my comments out of context and IGNORING what I previously said which made it more than clear the intents of my comments- so enough already- go play your little dishonest gasmes elsewhere- noti nterested in this childish banter of yours
You're flailing about very very badly, ... I'm not personally the kind of person that takes to liberals telling me what I can and can't do in public places or otherwise.
No one is stopping me, personally, from doing any of these things, (save the item I mentioned) because I know better, although it doesn't stop these various idiots with their multiple God-hang-ups from trying. And as pointed out, collectively, I'm directly involved in asking why the Georgia ACLU and other liberals think it's necessary to sue the school board to remove Christmas (without any parental input or notification) from the school calendar.
Since you're hellbent in minimizing and defending their actions, perhaps you can give one good reason to remove Christmas from a public school calendar?
When some idiot demands I or others not say Merry Christmas because someone might get offended...I get involved.
Sometimes this could be directly, (very) or other times it may be indirectly, (supporting Free Republic for example, btw a pro-Christian website).
But then, we weren't talking about me or making it personal were we?
I was PLAINLY talking about entire towns, schools and other groups as well as individuals being systematically attacked by liberals with their endless multiple God-hang-ups. I thought this was pretty clear actually.
All of those items you've listed, I will personally fight for. If this means fighting erosions or incrementalism, so be it. I won't ignore the Michael Newdow's locally or otherwise.
you'll note that lawsuits impinging on Christian priorities are not known for their actual success);
Ummm, not only will I NOT note it, but I'll laugh at the idea and invite you to re-read the afore-mentioned links:
www.ThomasMore.org
www.aclj.org
www.catholicleague.org
I'll also point out that because of groups just like these, more Christians (and others) are beginning more and more to understand their rights, so when a teacher tells a student not to say Merry Christmas, he and his parents and virtually everyone, know better, thanks to them.
It used to be that godless liberals could count on Christians (unlike any other group) to just shut up, turn the other cheek and take their abuse.
Not so.
And understand especially so because of these sites AND Free Republic.
Christian advocacy groups (well funded, independent, and operating without the least interference) are quite successful in the occasional lawsuit that comes down the pike concerning nativity scenes, Christmas trees, the pledge of allegience, and other sundry public-Christian-imagery cases. Perhaps you hadn't noticed.
Wow. It astounds me that this even occurs at all in this country in the first place. It's bad enough jerks get offended over children singing Christmas carols at Christmastime or don't want o hear Merry Christmas or see it in a school calendar ANY time of year, but for it to actually have to go to court ONCE is an outrage!
It's also painfully apparent that you think the hundreds if not thousands of lawsuits are "occasional" in your world.
And it is rather telling that the few, unsourced "examples" you provide are the exact same ones that are trotted out year after year as proof of universal Christian "persecution." Why, in a country this size, are these same "examples" perpetually being re-dealt by the "we're persecuted" crowd? Could it be that there just isn't all that much actual "persecution" going on?
Uhhhh...no.
I gave you the links, then there's google, it might help you look alot less foolish if you actually gave reading a chance!
www.catholicleague.org in particular has literally dozens and dozens of links. They actually break them down by the year.
When a person reads them, and I don't care if they're Christian or not, it should actually be quite alarming not based on religious principles but on American ones.
Look, chucklehead, I'm a Christian and actively involved in my Church's very public community projects.
Good for you! Personally though I prefer the American way, not the Euroweenie, slinking around, 2nd class citizen way.
I support entirely the visible, public presence of Christianity. And it is not "anti-Christian" to point out that a vocal minority of self-righteous, histrionic Christians ply a "persecution" trade at every opportunity on the thinnest reeds imaginable.
Ummmm again, you're really making a complete fool out of yourself by minimizing or ignoring all this...just as a Freeper if nothing else.
I've not seen anyone claiming to be Christian go to such extraordinary lengths to defend the ACLU, Michael Newdow and frankly too may other godless liberals to count. In my world banning the word Christmas from the school calendar, just because someone might get offended, is NOT a thin reed but quite a big log!
If a secularist godless liberal came to your school district and demanded the word Christmas be stricken from all school Calendars, from Dec. 25th, you know that Federal holiday, you can fold like a tent, roll over like a punk, but I won't.
Sorry, but virtually all Freepers would agree with me that not just as a Christian, but as an American, it's important to speak up, not minimize it and certainly not attack the people actually doing something while you're sitting on your hands ignoring it.
You have no idea what religious persecution actually is, and it is downright embarrassing to see folks like you posing as an oppressed minority. Grow up.
You're missing the point, either ignoring the links or can't read them; and I didn't say anything about "persecution" you did; incidentally, I understand the definition of persecution isn't limited to being killed or tortured, and I also understand that it all starts somewhere.
And secularist godless liberals dictating to the public what they're comfortable or uncomfortable with, hearing or seeing and so forth like Michael Newdow, should ALWAYS be confronted by ALL Americans.
Adults actually understand this concept.
It would seem that you've been here long enough to actually understand what Free Republic is all about by now.
I know some people are really slow, but GET A FREAKIN' CLUE ALREADY!
This is the second time you've referenced this particular suit. I can't find a thing about it. Would you mind providing a link to the actual lawsuit describing when it was filed, the allegations, and the resolution?
When some idiot demands I or others not say Merry Christmas . . . so when a teacher tells a student not to say Merry Christmas . . . It's bad enough jerks get offended over children singing Christmas carols . . . banning the word Christmas from the school calendar . . . If a secularist godless liberal came to your school district and demanded the word Christmas be stricken from all school Calendars . . . Michael Newdow's . . . Michael Newdow . . . Michael Newdow . . .
So your rant boils down to the histrionic, Fox news driven "war on Christmas" tripe and Michael Newdow. Gotcha.
It's also painfully apparent that you think the hundreds if not thousands of lawsuits are "occasional" in your world.
If there are "hundreds if not thousands of lawsuits" it should be a pretty easy task for you to identify, say, a dozen of them, and provide links that describe their filing, allegations, and resolution. I've looked through the Catholic League annual reports, and there is a distinct paucity of references to lawsuits.
You should seek immediate help, you’re both lost, (don’t have any idea where you’re at, it’s called Free Republic, not Daily Kos) AND you are obviously disconeected from reality.
You see, it’s not a rant to respond to a rant.
You see the rant is liberals/ACLU demanding Christmas be removed from school calendars, or they’ll sue.
BTW, reading is still fundamental!
Of all places I found out about it initially while watching Bill O’Reilly one evening. But it was well documnted on many places, not just Fox.
“Newton county schools”
“Georgia”
“ACLU”
“Christmas”
“ban”
in no particular order should get you started.
And maybe this time, instead of denying, defending or minimizing it, why not go ahead and cut to the chase and tell us WHY you agree with the ACLU on banning Christmas from school calendars and by what pretext.
Since you’re also a Christian, I’d like to see your response, right after I pop some popcorn.
It also appeared sometime later on www.ThomasMore.org
A rant is when liberals demand crosses be removed from cemeteries and chapels (Mt. Soledad, William and Mary).
Ummm “histrionics” is what Michael Newdow is doing when he hijacked his own daughter to attack “Under God” in the pledge.
Again, responding to histrionics isn’t histrionics.
No more than American GI’s defeating Hitler were the nazis.
I only got 17,600,000 hits on “lawsuits” & “Christianity” and right out of the gate is the recent:
“Christianity has no place in the military”
godless liberal idiocy.
Find, borrow, beg or steal... but really... GET A CLUE!
Lost AND confused is just no way to go through life son!
The specificity of your evidence and the cogency of your argument are incontestable.
The specificity of your evidence and the cogency of your argument are incontestable.
Correct. It is Free Republic after all.
Liberalism is a disease that robs one of their common sense, you at least owe it to yourself to treat it.
The ACLU did not file suit--they threatened. We always had either semester or holiday break for our holidays on the calendar. One year, the board (a different board from the one we have now) decided to change it to "Christmas." The following year they changed it back to "holiday" and it's been that way ever since. We have a very diverse student population and we haven't had any complaints concerning this. This is not even a recent story; it's actually several years old. I've been here almost 5 years and this happened before I was hired.So that's it? This is what you've got your knickers in a twist about? Something that happened more than 8 years ago (the letter is from 2005) that was never an actual lawsuit, was a response to changing the calendar from "holiday" to "Christmas," and was never an issue for any of the students? This is the all-out assault on Christianity?
I also looked at the catholicleague site. Under 2007, Activist Organizations, I find such "threats" as the dismissal of a lawsuit trying to keep the VA from offering religious services; an objection by a Jewish organization (note: not godless, not the ACLU) to renaming it "Christmas Recess" on a public school calendar (but who cares what Jews feel about it, right?); another rejection of a lawsuit trying to keep Christian schools from accessing state money to build a gym; fretting over a bunch of homosexuals' plans for blasphemous activities during Easter Week (I guarantee a lot more people went to Mass that week than participated in those activities); and other such whining. Aw, poor you.
Well, I hope you finally got your friend atlaw to understand that, as I said right from the outset, the ACLU threatened a lawsuit and like a tent the school board folded.
The ACLU often counted on the mere threat of a lawsuit, IN FACT when the story came out into the public the board exclaimed they didn’t have the money to fight it and that’s why they folded.
Which is not true AND Thomas More and other groups have picked up the slack and taken the fight to the ACLU. Liberals are on notice threats don’t work anymore and lawsuits involve two parties, not one; and now the ACLU understands that they’re not always on the offensive.
So no Einstein, it wasn’t put a vote by the children or something.
But I see you left out several things...color me shocked and all.
The letter was dated 2005 and from a different person. The person that took the call had a complete different take.
About half way down you missed the part where another poster declared it wasn’t over.
It’s not over.
The last I’d heard Thomas More was indeed looking into it.
It’s scary that people are so stupid they equate Christmas with “winter break” and completely miss the point that Christmas isn’t over a series of weeks but occurs on one specific day, December 25th.
A Federal Holiday that’s not referred to as “holiday” anywhere else.
But as “Christmas” everywhere else in fact.
Not too many kids and families I know are celebrating the winter, they’re going out of town etc. to celebrate Christmas.
They actually call it “holiday break” on the calendar but then again it’s no longer really a calendar at all but rather a list of dates, teacher work days etc. But even then they’ve replaced Christmas break with holiday break to be politically correct and more accurately because a board caved to ACLU liberals attacking Christianity.
The whole broken system is in flux because they’re learning this year round school system they implemented (about the time of this whole calendar debacle) is constantly getting tweaked and now it’s some unintelligible hybrid between year round school and traditional school.
Liberals are simply incapable if leaving traditions and what works alone. And they demand to ruin it for everyone.
If it offends people that Christmas occurs on Dec. 25th, too bad. THAT’S the federal holiday that kids are out of school for traditionally and currently in this country and everyone knows it.
If it offends people that people say Merry Christmas and not happy holidays...too bad.
Like your fellow liberal you confuse who it is that’s getting knickers in a twist...that would be the lunatic liberals.
We’re just trying to help you understand it.
Oh, and I see you cherry picked two catholic league articles....tsk tsk...now if only I hadn’t pointed out before the other 16 MILLION hits you’ve completely ignored huh?
Geee...this reminds me of idiots that defend the ACLU by bringing up the half dozen instances where they defend Christianity while ignoring the hundreds of instances of them attacking Christianity.
It might have been worth mentioning that it was called "holiday" for years before somebody on the school board decided it should be renamed "Christmas." Why didn't that person just leave well enough alone? What was their motive?
It’s scary that people are so stupid they equate Christmas with “winter break” and completely miss the point that Christmas isn’t over a series of weeks but occurs on one specific day, December 25th.
So why name the entire two-week break after that one day?
Not too many kids and families I know...
And the only people whose feelings matter are the ones you know, right?
Oh, and I see you cherry picked two catholic league articles....
Not at all. I went to the Annual Reports section (since you said they were broken down by year, I guessed that was where you wanted us to go), clicked on 2007 (the most recent year available), chose "Activist Organizations" (figuring that if anyone was involved in anti-Christian activity, it'd be an "activist organization"), and picked 4 of the first 5 on the list. I can't help it if their list leads off with such unimpressive examples of how persecuted they are. (The 5th one is even lamer, so I did you a favor by leaving it out.)
False. For as long as there's been a Newton School board Dec. 25th has always been referred to as Christmas.
Incidentally, on the exact same schedule, (it can't really be accurately called a calendar), it refers to the time allocated in mid to late November as:
"holiday AND Thanksgiving break".
Now why is that?
I'm not familiar with foreign cultures that celebrate some holiday on or around Thanksgiving , nevertheless if there is or isn't, the very American holiday of Thanksgiving isn't deemed "offensive" enough to remove.
And why is THAT?
And the only people whose feelings matter are the ones you know, right?
I see. So everyone's "feelings matter" except the majority Christian? Got it.
It's not about "feelings", it's about godless liberals trying to destroy the fabric of this society.
As far as the catholic league, they've changed their format and now charge for their 2008 report. But then there's still those 16+ MILLION hits. Thomas More, aclj...
Key words. No matter how much you desperately want to be an oppressed minority and play the victim game, you remain in the enormous and powerful majority. Come to grips with it.
Are you claiming that they changed the name of Dec. 25th on the calendar--that the day itself wasn't labeled "Christmas" any more? Because if not, I don't see the relevance of your comment.
I'm not familiar with foreign cultures that celebrate some holiday on or around Thanksgiving , nevertheless if there is or isn't, the very American holiday of Thanksgiving isn't deemed "offensive" enough to remove.
That's because Thanksgiving is, or can be, celebrated by all Americans. Your reference to "foreign cultures" is telling here--you seem to view any tradition other than your own as "foreign." How long do Jews, Hindus, and others who might not celebrate Christmas have to be here before their traditions get to be called "American" too?
So everyone's "feelings matter" except the majority Christian?
No, the majority Christians' feelings matter too. They just don't trump everyone else's. Sorry if you don't like that very American tradition.
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