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Jefferson, in Some Cases, Could be Called a Prophet.
Early 1800's | Thomas Jefferson

Posted on 12/29/2008 7:21:36 PM PST by Sen Jack S. Fogbound

Jefferson, in Some Cases, Could be Called a Prophet.

When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe. -- Thomas Jefferson

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -- Thomas Jefferson

It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle, which, if acted on, would save one-half the wars of the world. -- Thomas Jefferson

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. -- Thomas Jefferson

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. -- Thomas Jefferson

No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. -- Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. -- Thomas Jefferson

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. -- Thomas Jefferson

To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas, which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. -- Thomas Jefferson

Very Interesting Quote: In light of the present financial crisis, it's interesting to read what Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:

'I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.'


TOPICS: US: Virginia
KEYWORDS: foundingfathers; presidents; thomasjefferson
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To: BnBlFlag

“Can you prove he was a rapist?”

There’s good evidence that he wasn’t:

http://www.ashbrook.org/articles/mayer-hemings.html

You won’t see that mentioned in any liberal texts in public schools or most universities though. There’s is too much politics involved, which, btw, is how the rumor started in the first place. It’s akin to Palin’s baby being her daughter’s and spun by the same type of people.


41 posted on 12/30/2008 12:48:35 AM PST by Kent C
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To: Swiss

>>**I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.’**

> I have my doubts about that quote being Jefferson’s.

The first part on banking is in a letter to John Taylor... here: (last full paragraph)

http://history.liberatedtext.org/confounders/tj_bergh/v15/18160528johntaylor.html

The rest is “spurious”. See:

http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index.php/Private_Banks_(Quotation)


42 posted on 12/30/2008 1:05:36 AM PST by Kent C
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To: Kent C
>> The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. — Thomas Jefferson

> Not Jefferson.

Yes, Jefferson.

In a letter to William Stephens Smith, Nov. 13, 1787: http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl64.htm

Well, then guess what? There was some plagerizin' goin' on back then. I don't know who copied whom, but two separate people don't come up with essentially the same phrase at the same time, each on their own.

43 posted on 12/30/2008 5:32:30 AM PST by brewcrew
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To: Dick Bachert
Those one mile squares could just as easily have remained agricultural as he believed they would.

One square mile of land surrounded by roadway is not efficient. Y'all need big land to farm. Also, he died broke because of family debts. Too much speculation in the new Republic.

I do care and I admire Jefferson. Especially his thought that: "That government is best which governs the least."

44 posted on 12/30/2008 8:12:58 AM PST by April Lexington (Study the constitution so you know what they are taking away!)
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To: Will88
Wow, so Jefferson invented the city?

Calm down. Y'all don't live i the parts that are "blessed" with the national survey. You can't efficiently farm one square mile these days. Jefferson is a great guy and we love him to bits out here. But, the 40 acres and a mule thing just doesn't work out here in the West. It tore up the land and made it very inefficient for farming on the scale we need to feed ourselves. Food prices are going up as we have to farm around the WalMarts and big box restaurants, etc. Heck Obama wants to tax cow farts now! Wouldn't have to if folks would just live in those 6,000 year old cities instead of turning precious farm land into Mc Mansions!

45 posted on 12/30/2008 8:18:47 AM PST by April Lexington (Study the constitution so you know what they are taking away!)
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To: okie01
Excuse me, but I'm trying to understand your post. How does a survey, whether in rods, leagues or miles, destroy the "natural beauty of the continent"? And how does a survey CREATE "urban sprawl"? I fail to see the connection...

Ok, let me explain this to y'all... Dividing a good portion of the continent into one square mile plots surrounded by roads and then dividing these plots into 40 acres (with or without the mule) has created a situation IN THE MIDWEST AND THE WEST (that's West of the hills, for y'all back East) where very fertile farm land is being converted into suburban sprawl at an alarming rate. Good farm land is lost forever and the urban population( who likes to eat) doesn't like the smell, sounds and tastes of agriculture. Farmers are being land taxed out of business and the pressure to sell farm land to developers is huge. This is creating a big problem for local governments and is destroying farming in many areas of the West. Y'all don't have this problem back East because you didn't chop your land into 40 acre parcels. So, your vistas are beautiful and your farm/development issues tend to center around the fringes of big cities. I don't have time to lecture today but, please feel free to travel outside of your area and see for yourself what the National Survey has done to the rest of the continent. Then, you can shoot your mouth off and not sound like a fool! It will be great!

46 posted on 12/30/2008 8:27:02 AM PST by April Lexington (Study the constitution so you know what they are taking away!)
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To: April Lexington

With all due respect, do you have ANY idea tbe price — in physical and economic terms — he and most of the other 56 paid to leave us what they did?

He died broke because he was absent from the farm and home he loved at Monticello and could not devote all the time and thought necessary to successfully run a large agricultural enterprise.

To imply that Jefferson’s destitution at the end of his life was due to some character flaw or flaws seems more than just a bit petty and small.

I was stationed in the Washington area with the Air Force but never made the trip to Monticello. My wife and I corrected that oversight a few years ago. In the intervening years I had become deeply concerned with the course America was taking.

After visiting the beautiful home in which Mr. Jefferson – due to his service to the nation he helped create – spent but a few years, we made our way to the small family cemetery down the hill from the house. We were the only ones there and as we approached, I felt myself overcome with emotion. Not certain where that emotion would take me, I asked my wife to go on to the car.

As I stood reading the modest inscription on his headstone, I wept. For Mr. Jefferson. For ALL of the 56.

And for America.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIo8FJJMps8


47 posted on 12/30/2008 8:36:05 AM PST by Dick Bachert
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To: Dick Bachert
Dick, you and I are on the EXACT same page. I've been to Monticello a number of times. The tour guide told us that Jefferson invested with some relatives and then PERSONALLY backstopped the loans because he had such character. They stiffed him and he spent the rest of his life struggling to honor his commitments. That is the man Jefferson was and it shows in his love for country and his greatness.

I was saddened to see that the only real artifacts in the house that belonged to Jefferson were a few books in the library room just to the left of the entrance. Everything else was sold to help pay his debts after he died.

Past that, Jefferson was, I think, our greatest founding father (Washington fans, please start flaming now...) and if we follow his advice (except for the national survey thing) we will all be better off!

Thanks

48 posted on 12/30/2008 10:15:39 AM PST by April Lexington (Study the constitution so you know what they are taking away!)
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To: Dick Bachert
With all due respect, do you have ANY idea tbe price — in physical and economic terms — he and most of the other 56 paid to leave us what they did?

As a descendant of one of these men, I have seen the impact of their bravery on a personal level.

49 posted on 12/30/2008 10:18:38 AM PST by April Lexington (Study the constitution so you know what they are taking away!)
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To: brewcrew

“Well, then guess what? There was some plagerizin’ goin’ on back then. I don’t know who copied whom, but two separate people don’t come up with essentially the same phrase at the same time, each on their own.”

This might help you:

Jefferson’s letter to William Stephens Smith, November 13, 1787. “The Papers of Thomas Jefferson”.

Bertrand Barere de Vieuzac comment in a speech to the French national assembly, January 16, 1793.

While Jefferson was in France as a US ambassador, it is likely that he may have used the phrase in conversations with the revolutionaries there and it got passed on to Barere, who then used it later.


50 posted on 12/30/2008 10:38:39 AM PST by Kent C
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To: Alter Kaker
Just gotta jump in here despite my better judgment.
You sure have yourself a lot of pent up dislike for TJ. Rather than merely vent your hatred toward a FF, that passed nearly 200yr ago, over what appears to be a seriously distorted view of actual history, instead, apply that energy to more current circumstances.
Today's slavery in africa. The child slavery in the US being committed by well-to-do africans against those less fortunate. ref.: articles of late on this forum regarding child enslavement existing today
You want to make a difference? You want to stand up and be counted as against slavery in any fashion? You want to do more than just rant against “white old men” long dead and gone? Rather than twisting their life, existence and contributions with a stance of moral superiority viewed through eyes of the 21st century, demand accountability of those practicing slavery today.
Demand punishment, abolition, executions, stripping of their wealth, and a worldwide war against slavery where ever it is found.
Put all that anger and resentment to work against the slavery of today. Make your anger count. Be positive change for the good of man. I just can't get the image of those recent accounts of those poor children out of my mind. My blood boils at the mere thought.
51 posted on 12/30/2008 10:51:16 AM PST by benasawin
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To: benasawin

Huh? What does slavery in Africa have to do with Thomas Jefferson’s personal hypocrisy?


52 posted on 12/30/2008 12:17:09 PM PST by Alter Kaker (Gravitation is a theory, not a fact. It should be approached with an open mind...)
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To: April Lexington
A simple prime meridian survey creates "urban sprawl"? That is one of the most lame-brained contentions I've ever heard.

Y'all don't have this problem back East because you didn't chop your land into 40 acre parcels.

Are you perhaps familiar with New Jersey? Across the river from either New York City or Philly? Or the Baltimore/D.C. suburbs? Is this not "urban sprawl"? Without the benefit of "40 A. parcels"?

Do you find the "urban sprawl" of the Midwest offensive simply because the land is flat and undifferentiated? But "urban sprawl" can follow creek valleys and ridgelines just as easily as it can follow section lines.

Or do you find "urban sprawl" offensive because it allows the middle-class to escape "the urban experience"? Unfortunately, though, some folks actually prefer "the suburban experience" (relatively low cost, relatively large space, better public schools, etc.) to the "urban experience" (higher cost, smaller space, godawful schools, etc.).

Why shouldn't they be allowed to exercise their better judgment?

Even if it offends you...???

53 posted on 12/30/2008 12:51:46 PM PST by okie01 (THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA: Ignorance on Parade)
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To: Alter Kaker; Will88
Some just don't get it and others never will.
Either you are unaware or you chose to ignore. It is beyond me to determine which.
It might be suggested reading of the 1st draft, by TJ, that was presented to Congress. TJ made very clear in his attempt to remedy the slavery situation in this document.
Records indicate a clear choice at the “time”. If a Constitution was to be signed by all parties, the issue of slavery would not be addressed at the time.
Hypocrisy? I think not.
In the eloquent words of Will88 earlier on this thread, I suggest a rereading of his point(s).

“... But these rights and liberties in the US Constitution had never been extended to any men, anywhere, until it was done at the founding of the US. .... (T)the recognition of these rights and liberties by a government for its citizens was a remarkable achievement and step forward at that time. It gave others an example to consider, and it gave the descendants of slaves a constitution they could look to and petition that it also be applied to them. ...

... how freedoms have developed slowly over the centuries and millennia, ... the remarkable advances that took place at the founding of the USA? “ Will88

The gift our FF’s and TJ gave us is so remarkable, so unheard of and so unique in the world, the tarnishing of these great men's memory is thoughtless and inconsiderate. Keep in mind, these men were human and subsequently fallable. But rather than focus on their shortcomings, appreciate and be grateful for what they sacrificed and did manage to give us.

As far as your comment >Huh? What does slavery in Africa have to do with Thomas Jefferson’s personal hypocrisy?<
First, your opinion that TJ was a hypocrite is just that, an opinion. You're welcome to it just don't expect me to hitch my wagon to that baggage of victim hood mentality.
Second, slavery seems to be your big hangup thus my reference to both african slavery today as well as the instances of slavery in America that is being fostered upon the child victims by migrating africans as related in the previously mentioned thread(s).
Again, rather than carping about conditions 200 years ago, do something about the existing horrors of slavery today.
Do something positive.

54 posted on 12/30/2008 1:59:09 PM PST by benasawin
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To: Alter Kaker
He was a hypocrite and saying "the slaves were not considered to be qual to the citizens" only proves my point. He did not believe all men were created equal, or, if he did, he acted in a way that indicated he did not.

It's still simple. Slaves were not considered to be on the same level as men who were not slaves. It had been that way since recorded history and before, and not just black slaves, but slaves of all colors and ethnic groups. That was the way of the world. So, when Jefferson said, "all men are created equal", he did not include slaves in his official capacity as drafter of the DofI. I can't say what he thought personally, nor can you, but I think he was intelligent enough to know what he could and could not declare in his declaration.

Those such as you who are gifted with 20/20 hindsight and moral superiority concerning events of more than two centuries ago, well, it's just a pity you weren't around in 1776 to correct all those morally deficient founders. I'm sure you could have changed the world with your brilliance alone.

But people who are able to have some perspective over the centuries of history know that all wrongs are never righted with one fell swoop. The accomplishments of the founders was remarkable, whether you can put it in historical context or not. And, read carefully, the rights extended to citizens and most in America with the constitution and Bill of Rights have not yet been extended to the majority of the present inhabitants of this earth. Why is that?

55 posted on 12/30/2008 2:33:05 PM PST by Will88
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To: benasawin
Some just don't get it and others never will.

are There just some who believe they have something to gain with their fault finding of everything American. Some are just old leftist haters who resent everything American, some think their claimed victim status is their most precious possession, and others are just the victims of a limited amount of mis-education and PC indoctrination, and they lack the insight and intelligence to work their way out of it into a more accurate historical perspective.

56 posted on 12/30/2008 2:39:24 PM PST by Will88
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To: April Lexington
Y'all don't live i the parts that are "blessed" with the national survey.

You're almost speaking in code. People might agree with you if you'd spell out more clearly. But, yes, here in the southeast, 1 1/2 acres will support a cow/calf unit. I understand it can take 20 acres and more in many places out west. Maybe you're dissatisfaction involves federal policy re: western lands? But how does that relate to Jefferson and surveys?

57 posted on 12/30/2008 2:45:03 PM PST by Will88
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To: Alter Kaker
Common understanding back then and waaaayyyy before was that black slaves and yes, white indentured “servants” were considered property, not free men or people.

All is forgiven since we are not to judge the present (Politically incorrect) but the deconstruction of the past produces surges of moral superiority up and down our spines. How "enlightening" our soceity, made up of present day hypocrites, is when condeming the past.

58 posted on 12/30/2008 2:49:21 PM PST by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: rollo tomasi

You have nailed it. Very well done.


59 posted on 12/30/2008 3:12:07 PM PST by benasawin
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To: Will88
But how does that relate to Jefferson and surveys?

Once the land was surveyed and sold to pioneers it was too late to re-think land use based on natural features and conditions. Its 36 square miles forever! Very hard to set aside platted land for big ag or any use other than small farms and subdivisions. Other than the back to Earth sustainable crowd, farming interests have struggled for decades with arbitrary borders that don't make geographic sense. Not code. Just Google western ag issues and see for yourself. I'm not blaming Jefferson. Its just the way it is 240ish years later.

60 posted on 12/30/2008 6:40:03 PM PST by April Lexington (Study the constitution so you know what they are taking away!)
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