Posted on 12/29/2008 7:21:36 PM PST by Sen Jack S. Fogbound
Jefferson, in Some Cases, Could be Called a Prophet.
When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe. -- Thomas Jefferson
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -- Thomas Jefferson
It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle, which, if acted on, would save one-half the wars of the world. -- Thomas Jefferson
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. -- Thomas Jefferson
My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. -- Thomas Jefferson
No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. -- Thomas Jefferson
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. -- Thomas Jefferson
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. -- Thomas Jefferson
To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas, which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. -- Thomas Jefferson
Very Interesting Quote: In light of the present financial crisis, it's interesting to read what Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:
'I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.'
reference
Wait a minute. You are defining slavery as portrayed on TV since the 60’s.
The reality of those relationships were far more complicated than that. I would never defend an indefensible institution like that, but in most cases it was not like recent history books portrayed it.
I know about old family relationships, friendships, and traditions.
Those seem to have little value in current society, and that is why we are sick as a nation.
Do not judge citizens of the 1700’s by today’s culture and morality. (or lack of morality)
Unfortunately many today believe because of the technological innovations that have been made in the last 75 years, that people who lived 125-200 years ago were uneducated and stupid.
The irony of the information age is that in the presence of the most advanced communication medium in history, that our culture is less well informed about politics and economics than we were 100 years ago. Blame the propaganda we call the MSM, and their keepers.
the constitution also says it is the duty of the people to overthrow a corrupt government. where are the people today?
Not Jefferson.
The tree of liberty only grows when watered by the blood of tyrants. --Bertrand Barère de Vieuzac
And do you KNOW WHY he died broke?
Do you CARE??
I guess you’re pissed that he failed to be sufficiently clairvoyant to grasp that his survey work would result in the urban mess we have today.
Those one mile squares could just as easily have remained agricultural as he believed they would.
If I remember correctly, he also said “a people ignorant and free never was and never will be.”
yeah, he did.
good reference reading.
I agree.
While there were great thoughts of all of our founding fathers, there was also a degree of pragmatism. The Revolution was enabled by the ‘time’. At another time, it may not have been pulled off.
In writing the Declaration, Jefferson made the case for that being the ‘time’ with:
“But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government and to provide new Guards for their future Security.”
With regard to slavery, much of the same sensibilities were present as to the ‘condition’ but he also knew the ‘time’ wasn’t right to act. For one, there wouldn’t have been any Constitution and he was of this mind (in a letter to Jean Nicolas DeMeunier, 1786):
“... they (Virginia Legislature) saw that the moment of doing it (emancipation) with success had not yet arrived, and that an unsuccessful effort, as too often happens, would only rivet still closer the chains of bondage, and retard the moment of delivery to this oppressed description of men.”
There’s more to the letter and it’s worth a read:
http://www.wfu.edu/~zulick/340/Jefferson.html
Although I don’t think that slavery was the main issue in the War between the States, one could make a good case that @60 years after Jefferson wrote that, that the ‘moment’ had not yet arrived.
>> The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. — Thomas Jefferson
> Not Jefferson.
Yes, Jefferson.
In a letter to William Stephens Smith, Nov. 13, 1787:
http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl64.htm
As a young man Jefferson called slavery abhorrent, however he owned MANY slaves, buried them in unmarked graves and probably fathered several children with one of his slaves.
So how can you call the practice of slavery abhorrent, but then go on and do what I describe above.
That would be the equivalent of someone spending their whole life championing the environment and speaking out against global warming, but then flying in a private jet, living in a huge energy hungry mansion, and driving in giant gas guzzling SUVs. Al Gore anyone.
Recognized? He embodied the imperfectability of man. He extolled freedom and hard work while enslaving the hundreds who did his hard work for him. He lauded bravery and forcefully advocated revolution, yet was himself a physical coward who – alone among the Framers – spent the entire Revolution running away from the British. Jefferson thought many great thoughts (as well as a few nutty ones) but there's no point in making him into a demi-God. He was a slaver, a rapist, as President presided over probably the worst economic blunder in the history of United States economic policy, and was a deeply flawed and hypocritical person. A great man? Perhaps. But not a good man.
Jefferson is dead and I'm not him, so it's impossible to know what he meant and what he did not mean. But it is possible to know what he said and what he wrote and, by contrast, what he actually did. Jefferson didn't practice what he preached, and that's textbook hypocrisy. In an age when many were freeing their slaves, Jefferson was raping his. So much for all men being endowed by their Creator with unalienable rights...
The only thing curious here is your arrogance at calling a Founding Father a hypocrite in the face of historical fact.
Get off your high horse. Jefferson was a man, not a god.
Can you prove he was a rapist?
My wife and I had the exact same discussion this weekend during our visit to Monticello. Very few could rival Jefferson when it came to the written word, but a man of bold action in a time of such actions, he was not.
**I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.’**
I have my doubts about that quote being Jefferson’s. First of all how many corporations was there in 1802? Other than a few joint stock companies in England that form of ownership wasn’t very strong in that time.
Second is the terms “Inflation” and “Deflation” I looked quickly at Adam Smith’s “Wealth of Nations” for those terms and while he describes the transfer of gold and silver between nations and some of his concepts would be describing inflation and deflation but I don’t see those actual terms. Since that book in 1776 was the premier economics book I think it is doubtful that “Inflation” and “Deflation” was in use in 1802.
By the way, my prev response was not about TJ or slavery per se. I was merely pointing out that it was not logical in comparing the particular statement that was used to ownership of slaves. If TJ was a "hypocrite", (as Washington, Madison, and a host of others must too have been), the quote used would not reasonably support this.
And? What's your point? Anybody who writes poetically about how all men are created equal, while actively promoting slavery and fighting against equal rights for residents of cities is a hypocrite. Arguing that slavery was more or less benign doesn't change that fact. I know about old family relationships, friendships, and traditions. Those seem to have little value in current society, and that is why we are sick as a nation. Do not judge citizens of the 1700’s by today’s culture and morality. (or lack of morality)
You can judge Jefferson's behavior by any generation's morality and it still fails the test. Jefferson was, among many other things, a rapist and it's hard to conceive of a time when rape was socially or morally acceptable. Not in his time nor in ours.
Unfortunately many today believe because of the technological innovations that have been made in the last 75 years, that people who lived 125-200 years ago were uneducated and stupid.
I believe nothing of the sort. Jefferson was a brilliant man, an educated man, and a very strange man who acted in some incredibly dishonorable and hypocritical ways.
What a charmer, you.
It's simple, the slaves were not considered to be equal to the citizens of that day. They were not considered in all the rights and liberties recognized in our original constitution and Bill of Rights.
And where are we in disagreement? Jefferson who wrote that all men are created equal -- and in the first draft of the Declaration of Independence actually had the chutzpah to blame the King for creating slavery -- in fact believed nothing of the sort. Jefferson preached equality but did everything in his power to preserve (and expand) slavery, deny equality to city dwellers, deny equality to immigrants, and murder Indians. He was a hypocrite and saying "the slaves were not considered to be qual to the citizens" only proves my point. He did not believe all men were created equal, or, if he did, he acted in a way that indicated he did not.
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