Eligibility dispute, Part 2, scheduled by Supremes

No lessons from Barry O, but let me ‘put it all together’ for you and you can determine if a fantastic subterfuge makes any sense.

Here are points to consider:

1) The CoLB that is shown on factcheck.org states the registration was made Aug 8th, 4 days after birth, and the birthplace was Honolulu. The CoLB, if it is legit, is just a printout of what is in the database and the database is what was entered Aug 8th, 1961 and reflective of the birth certificate. Unless the records were tampered with or changed since then, and there is no evidence of that, and unless the whole CoLB is forged, which some believe but I consider a false and weak claim at this point ... you are left with the conclusion that on August 8th 1961, his birth was recorded with state of Hawaii, and his birthplace was Honolulu.

2) At the same time the local Honolulu paper had a birth announcement, probably using the same information.

http://texasdarlin.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/close-up.jpg

3) Is the CoLB a forgery? Extremely unlikely:

http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_2.jpg

While it is conceivable to forge such a document, to do so in order to state a non-fact is chock full of many holes, and the document looks real and genuine. This picture does not look like the picture of a forgery, and it is quite interesting that the “It’s a forgery” argument applied on earlier documented CoLB images gets completely shattered by this photo, as it is clear that three was and is a real paper CoLB.

4) Now lets review the statement of the Hawaii officials:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/politics/17866037/detail.html

“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record,” DOH Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said. State officials said Saturday they have personally verified that the health department holds Obama’s original birth certificate. “Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures,” Fukino said.

So we have state of Hawaii vouching for existence of Obama’s records. This makes the ‘CoLB is a forgery’ claim even more dubious to irrelevent.

5) People insist on seeing the ‘real’ birth certificate, but that would just be a form that repeats the CoLB. They have it on file. If you think that what they have on file in ANY WAY CONTRADICTS the CoLB that came from the Hawaii records database, then Mr Fukino would be ‘in’ on a scam perpetrated on all of us. I’d rate it a 99.999% probability that the birth certificate on file has the exact same information as the already-released CoLB and 0.0001% chance of scam ... how/why would the CoLB be forged if the state of Hawaii *does* have a real birth record for Obama?

Were Obama to find some dog-eared paper that is the original birth cert, 99% would again be happy and 1% would find reasons to consider it suspect, since they are trying to prove something - facts be damned - rather than be open-minded about the preponderance of evidence.

5. Claims that Obama was NOT born in Honolulu are burdened with the fantastic extrapolation that a pregnant and not well-off 17-year-old college freshman went overseas and travelled thousands of miles. And for what purpose? To have Barack Obama overseas only to then engage in a bizarre subterfuge of hiding that fact from that day forward. Apparently the complete and utter lack of evidence of any of this doesnt deter the conspiracy minded.

Putting all this together, we have enough evidence that, were this decided in a court of law, it would be clear that preponderance of the evidence falls on the side of Obama being born in Honolulu. And if and when the original birth certificate is produced, you could take it to ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’.

Barack Hussein Obama II was born in Honolulu, August 4th, 1961.

We could provide a much more extensive list of all Obama’s official records and personal history that have been hidden from public access - records that most every other modern president has made readily available to the masses. The birth certificate is just one of the more glaring examples of how Obama appears to have much to hide.

I don’t know about you, but public people (especially presidents) who keep substantial parts of their lives private are not trustworthy. What is the old saying, “the truth shall set you free”? I think Obama needs a big dose of “freedom” and the American people need a lot more transparency. If this can only be accomplished through the courts and other legal instruments, then so be it!

Your statements may be true but are irrelevent to where Obama was born. With all the other holes in his background, Obama’s birth in Honolulu is probably one of the few things you can count on in Barack Obama’s life.

Someone said that the information that eventually comes from those who are very tight with it is usually very valuable.

Wow. Just (finally) made it through to post 203 in this thread. Gotta give you points for stamina!

Unfortunately, this argument has generated a lot of heat, and no light. All I’ve seen for the last 100+ posts is “you’re wrong” and “no, you’re wrong”, along with some ad hominem attacks (from both sides). Both sides seem to look at the information completely, and then have become satisfied with their separate conclusions.

Me? I’m stuck in the middle here. Occam’s razor would say you’re right, he was born in Hawaii. But that doesn’t satisfy a LOT of un-answered questions with concrete proof. And I’m a strict constructionist when it comes to the Constitution, so I want proof beyond any reasonable doubt. I’m hung up here:

1. The CoLB could easily have been forged. Annenberg isn’t a forensic company - their opinion on validity carries no weight with me. Plus, it’s not the long-form vault copy, that would include hospital of birth, attending physicians and/or nurses, other witnesses, etc. Fukino says they have it, and she’s seen it. For the cost of a FedEx pack, Obama could approve its release. Instead, he’s spent hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars fighting lawsuits. Why does this make sense to anyone?

2. Obama’s Indonesian school records say his name was Sotero. The schools require Indonesian citizenship for attendance. There is no provision/allowance for dual-citizenship in Indonesia at the time. Did he give up his U.S. citizenship? Did his mother and father lie to get him into school? I don’t know, but I want to know. If he DID give up his citizenship, then he’s ineligible, as he’s never applied for reinstatement, as far as anyone knows.

3. He traveled to Pakistan when it was prohibited for US citizens to do so. On what passport? As what nationality? A simple photocopy of the passport used, with entry/exit visa would suffice.

4. There’s a lot of public comment and confusion on place of birth: grandmother says Kenya; Kenyan Ambassador says Kenya; sisters say Hawaii, but at two different hospitals; one investigator looked and found no hospital with any records of his birth there. Obama himself says he was a British subject at birth, due to his father’s Kenyan nationality. Was he a dual-citizen? Again, a lot to clear up here too.

5. His records from Columbia University and Harvard were sealed. Why? Who knows. But, they could either corroborate or conflict with the Hawaiian birth story. His application, including one for financial aid, would state his place of birth and his nationality. This could help or hurt his case, depending on content, but he’s had them sealed.

What I’m left with is a lot of suspicion. He’s going to lead our nation, and be entrusted with our greatest secrets. Yet he’s unwilling to even crack the window a little about his past? Bizarre! Especially from the wing of the political spectrum that rails against the Bush administration as the most secretive in history.

Obama has the ability to make most/all of this go away by opening records, and being fully candid and transparent. As you state, he could be ignoring the issue to make the right look like kooks. He could also have something to hide.

Summary? Daylight is the best disinfectant. Open up the records and let us all see. We can then separate the true kooks from those of us that just want the whole truth.

#1 “The CoLB could easily have been forged. “
How likely is that? The original claim was that the forgery was online manipulation of images. Factcheck punctured that bubble with a picture of a real paper CoLB. It *might* have been forged, but it would have had to be a forgery of a paper document, not easy at all, and the likelihood of Obama, mid-campaign, doing something like that? doubtful, and the evidence for it? None. And then the followup from Hawaii state officials to confirm that Obama has birth records in Hawaii and they have his birth certificate on file. Seriously, how likely is forgery given all that?

“Instead, he’s spent hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars fighting lawsuits. Why does this make sense to anyone?” I’ve answered this already. It doesnt hurt Obama at all to have some fringers chase this dead-end rabbit trail. Keeps us away from the real issues (eg GOV Blago, Rezko, etc!)

#5 is interesting (school records) but a separate topic.

Last, there will never be enough ‘concrete proof’ for some. That is why courts speak of ‘reasonable doubt’. We may have doubts, but are they reasonable? That’s the question. I’m not trying to convince people to certainty, but just to get the real evidence on the table. For me, the conclusion is pretty clear - the evidence points to him being born in Honolulu just like the official story says. People can talk of unanswered questions all day long, but if there are reasonable and obvious answers and evidence backs it up ... why assume the very unlikely scenario is true?

"How likely is that?"

If you're trying to hide something, then very likely.

"Keeps us away from the real issues ..."

I/we can pursue more than one issue at a time. I doubt this will keep anyone away from other items and issues of interest. Again, why spend millions when you can spend $30 on a FedEx pack and be done?

"#5 is interesting (school records) but a separate topic"

Not separate in the context in which I raised it: to corroborate his supporters' version, or to refute it with info that corroborates the "he's ineligible" version.

Again, I'm not sure what to believe. But the longer this goes in with Obama maintaining a shroud of secrecy of his past, the more suspicious it appears.