Posted on 08/13/2008 6:42:34 AM PDT by shrinkermd
Imagine that America had no system of post-secondary education, and you were a member of a task force assigned to create one from scratch. One of your colleagues submits this proposal:
First, we will set up a single goal to represent educational success, which will take four years to achieve no matter what is being taught. We will attach an economic reward to it that seldom has anything to do with what has been learned. We will urge large numbers of people who do not possess adequate ability to try to achieve the goal, wait until they have spent a lot of time and money, and then deny it to them. We will stigmatize everyone who doesn't meet the goal. We will call the goal a "BA."
You would conclude that your colleague was cruel, not to say insane. But that's the system we have in place.
Finding a better way should be easy. The BA acquired its current inflated status by accident. Advanced skills for people with brains really did get more valuable over the course of the 20th century, but the acquisition of those skills got conflated with the existing system of colleges, which had evolved the BA for completely different purposes.
Outside a handful of majors -- engineering and some of the sciences -- a bachelor's degree tells an employer nothing except that the applicant has a certain amount of intellectual ability and perseverance. Even a degree in a vocational major like business administration can mean anything from a solid base of knowledge to four years of barely remembered gut courses
(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...
Wow, you guys have been out of college for a while? They let anyone in now at many colleges, and you have to work to flunk out of most majors. It's too much trouble for profs to fail people.
You are a loony. Buzz off.
You are absolutely right about companies that want an educated work force - they are supportive not only through the tuition reimbursement, but in the intangibles that go along with it. I'll always be grateful to my superiors for the moral support they provided as well.
I've never known HR to make the hiring decisions. They just use the criteria prepared by the managers/supervisors to separare the wheat from the chafe and make sure that everyone who gets an interview at least meets the minimum requirements.
But the final hiring decision is never made by HR.
“I will be telling my own kids to think about using $100,000 to start a business at 18 instead of going to college.”
I support this and other “voucher” proposals. Alternatively, if the youth can finish college in 3 years instead of 4 by scoring well on Advanced Placement exams in high school, he can use the $25 K to start a business, or to pay for the 1st year of an MBA a few years later. Many kids do not fully take advantage of what their high schools have to offer. I was advanced in math and took AP Calculus in 10th grade, alongside seniors. Especially after they got college admissions letters, many of them did not do their best, thinking they would just repeat the course in college.
Safety and security are great pressures.
They weren't "fluff" courses. Indeed, The Arts and the World Civ courses probably flunked out more freshmen than any other courses. I think it's a sad commentary that your degree allowed you to skip English altogether. My one year English Comp course was a pain in the butt at the time, but I appreciate that course now and I know it made me a better writer. The English Lit stuff was also a pain, but it exposed me to writings that I'm sure I never would have read on my own and I appreciate that now, too. In both cases, I'm glad they required those courses, plus courses in math, physics, psychology, sociology, and political science. While I saw no value in them at the time, I'm glad they were required.
Actually three English courses were required for a degree, but I tested out of all of them after taking AP English in high school -- which is exactly where such general education courses belong... as opposed to college, where many people are paying good money to obtain a degree in their major field of study, not to satisfy some fruity notion of being a well-rounded person..
Say it again.
Watch those schools carefully. They may complain that high schools aren’t doing their job, but they know remedial education is honey over bread and butter. Not just for English departments. Large calculus classes fill the coffers, regardless of student success.
Had to take creative writing...But it was the teacher’s specs...Use a million adjectives and you’ll get an “A”. The course was like repeating 5th grade.
That's great...you must have had a good learning experience in high school. However, not all schools do as well. Also, those who don't want a liberal arts education can attend a technical school if they wish to do so. However, calling someone who is versed in other areas of study the result of "some fruity notion of being a well-rounded person" seems a bit harsh.
I see. You can’t argue against what I said so you have to resort to ridicule. I know all I need to know about where you are coming from.
Now do you have an intelligent arguement against what I said, or not?
Good luck even getting an interview for certain higher paying jobs with long term career possibilities with nothing more than a high school diploma. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but any realistic person would have to admit that those cases are the exception to the rule.
The bottom line whether people like it or not is that any smart employer/company, when it comes down to choosing between someone who is good at their job/skill, and someone who is good at their job/skill AND educated will more often than not choose the former.
I agree, except I would add Engineering fields (mechanical, electrical, civil, etc) as areas where college teaches a skill for a job.
I'm not saying one could not learn these skills on their own, but the college setting (labs, late night study sessions with serious classmates) helps build a logical problem solving mindset.
Yes, I'm an Engineer.
Degree holders defending their egos? Excuse me?
It is smarmy, arrogant, holier than thou posters like you who have come on here to tell degree holders how stupid we are for spending the time, effort, and money to earn a degree and WE are the ones with the big egos?
You sound like a bitter and unpleasant person. Buhbye, right back at ya.
I agree, to a point.
There are quite a lot of required classes these days that are nothing but leftwing propaganda Bulls/-/!t. Being forced to spend money on them supports the propaganda machine and the lefty professor. I do not believe these should be required courses.
Law, for another.
But the game is ending. There are to many degreed idiots out there.
I am an engineer also. And yes, it is useful.
But a friend of mine is a drafter and designer of fire trucks. Known throughout the biz as one of the best. He is all self taught.
But even then, if he would have to leave his job or his field, he would start at 0. At least with a degree it helps to open some doors.
The evidence is on Murray’s side. Only 4 out of 7 people who enter college graduate within 6 years.
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