US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war-(the old .223 vs .308 media style)

ap ^ | 5/26/08 | ap

[Flavius]

ASHINGTON: As Sgt. Joe Higgins patrolled the streets of Saba al-Bor, a tough town north of Baghdad, he was armed with bullets that had a lot more firepower than those of his 4th Infantry Division buddies.

As an Army sniper, Higgins was one of the select few toting an M14. The long-barreled rifle, an imposing weapon built for wars long past, spits out bullets larger and more deadly than the rounds that fit into the M4 carbines and M16 rifles that most soldiers carry.

"Having a heavy cartridge in an urban environment like that was definitely a good choice," says Higgins, who did two tours in Iraq and left the service last year. "It just has more stopping power

[tlj18]

I’ve talked to soldiers who have been to Iraq - and they don’t exactly aim at their target. I mean, if you are getting shot at, you aren’t going to shoot the same way at the range. The strategy is often, sling lead downrange, and if you are lucky, you’ll hit something. Of course, laser-guided munitions are the ultimate one shot, one kill... :-)

[Dusty Road]

Every fall i bring in a group of younger vets to deer hunt on my place. We have a great time around the fire. The M-14 comes up every time we discuss weapons. All that I’ve talked to, would much rather be carrying the M-14 and all want it for the same reason. It shoots through walls, a problem they deal with on a daily basis.

[BipolarBob]

That would call for a change of policy, not rifles.

[Smokin' Joe]

Actually, ballistics tables show the .30-06 and the .308 to be closer than the .303 when the bullet weight is the same (and the manufacturer). Felt recoil depends on the firearm as well,(especially for me because the '06 I have is a bolt rifle and the .308 is semiauto). I'm fairly good sized and do not notice that much difference.

The .303 is the lightweight of the bunch, though. Hard to believe many aircraft machine guns were in that caliber well into WWII. I have an old Ross, but it is incomplete and until I get a round tuit and go over it pretty thoroughly, I won't shoot it (straight pull action). Maybe I will pick up a SMLE, just to check it out.

[kAcknor]

U.S. Special Operations Command in Tampa, Florida, is buying a carbine called the SCAR Heavy for its commandos, and it shoots the same round as the M14.

7.62mm NATO FN SCAR-H / Mk.17 rifles of current (2007/2008) production, top to bottom in Long Barrel (LB), bstandard (Std) and Close Quarter Combat (CQC) configurations
Image: FNH USA

Heck, this works for me... ;)

[tlj18]

Not sure I like the 20-round magazine, though. Would prefer a 30.

[AnAmericanMother]

You be careful with that Ross. It killed a lot of Canadian soldiers when the bolt was reinstalled backward after cleaning. Stupid design. I might do what we did with an old SMLE of uncertain origin -- clamp it down to a benchrest, surround it with sandbags, and pull the trigger off with a string.

The .303 is often compared with the .30-40 Krag, but its ballistics are closer to .308. The 174 gr Sierra boattail is what I use, I never liked the 200 gr although if I were going after bear I might change my mind.

The .308 develops a little more more velocity with the same weight bullet. I can get 2500 out of a 174 in a .303, but that is really pushing it and accuracy suffers, while the .308 will do 2800 easy.

I think where you really notice the higher case capacity and bigger energy potential in the .30'06 is in the heavier weight bullets. The .308 is very unhappy with 200 gr and Hodgdon doesn't even recommend a load for the 220, but the .30'06 will still heave a 220 out there at 2400 fps.

[Squantos]

Good points ...reason we have 30 round mags and select fire as well these days.

Stay safe and thanks for yer service Jack !

[joe fonebone]

what about the 7.62 x 39? light weight and a little more punch than the 5.56

[norton]

Better'n Springfield - 1917 Enfield pattern 30.06.

(Might want to note that whenever they get bored a General Staff will start to look at smaller and smaller calibers; .223 wasn't a new concept but it fit the spray and pray role nicely.)

[sig226]

Funny you mention that.

My father was a newly minted Lieutenant when they sent him to the Danube with his M1 Carbine. He said he was lucky. His guys told him that the Germans knew we issued carbines to officers, so they looked for the guy with the box magazine and shot him first.

He also dropped his carbine and picked up a Garand. He never regretted it.

[snoringbear]

“During my first 2 months in Viet Nam I carried an M-14, then some fool gunnery guy made me give it back and replaced it with an M-16. Seven months later, that P.O.S. M-16 jammed on me during a fire fight. I always considered the M-16 a downgrade to a less accurate, poorly designed piece of crap, with less stopping power.”

As you, I started out with an M-14 with a selector switch on it and later was issued an M-16. However, I was able to retain my M-14 as well and carried it when out on convoys and such.

Anyway, the 308/30 cal round definitely has more knock-down punch and concrete block breaking capability than the .223 round. My vote would be to follow the guidance on the Seals and start issuing the chopped-down carbine version of the M-14 that they pack. Btw, just as a side note; the .223 round is outlawed in many states for deer hunting because it lacks the knock-down power to reliably deliver a killing shot.

[Noumenon]

Anticipating trouble, I bought a substantial quantity of 30.06 AP pulls a while back. They load and shoot just fine in a .308 case. They also keep my Garand happy.

After all’s said and done, riflemen know that larger calibers make a more lasting imopression. Aside from the Marines, are we turning out riflemen anymore?

[Noumenon]

My dad, rest his soul, told a similar story. Chucked his M1 carbine for a Garand first chance he got.

[Soliton]

I shot an m-1 carbine 2 weeks ago. It was designed as a replacement for a pistol as a side arm for support personnel, officers and paratroopers. It has an extremely high rate of fire and very little recoil.

[Smokin' Joe]

I picked the Ross up on a horsetrade long ago, and never trusted the action, especially when I noticed parts appeared to be missing. I had visions of having part of my face ripped away, and decided it might be prudent to wait until I could do more research. I suppose now, with the internet, would be a good time...(that is how long it has been sitting in the darkest corner of the safe).

I'd have to route the string through/around something, I still would not want to stand behind it... (no wall/berm behind the benches at the outdoor range)

As for .30-06 loads, my favorite is the 180 gr for deer. My friends gave me a hard time at first "Isn't that a bit MUCH for whitetail??", but I really don't like trying to track a critter in shortgrass prairie in the dark, and most of my best shots are near dusk.

The 180 puts them down, now.

Besides, if you place your shot well, you don't mess up any more meat than you would have with the 150 gr. (which is not much, just a couple of ribs)

I have some of the old Herter's Round nosed ammo for the '06, much heavier than I'd use for anything but bear or maybe moose/elk, and admittedly do not recall offhand exactly what it is, I just put it up. I have not had call to use it, but it will keep...

I never loaded the .308 to the heavy side, with the '06 around I just did not see the need, and so far, I mostly use just it punching paper.

That 2800 is hotter than factory, what load are you using?

[Soliton]

I have an SMLE in .303. It’s a pain to shoot because of the constant cleaning due to corosive ammunition. I also have an Ishy Enfield in 7.62 Nato (which is sometimes incorrectly called .308)

[PapaBear3625]

After all’s said and done, riflemen know that larger calibers make a more lasting impression.

A .30 cal into the engine ( followed by multiple rounds through the car body plus a few into the gas tank) is just the thing to spoil a drive-by shooter's evening

[SampleMan]

I shot an m-1 carbine 2 weeks ago. It was designed as a replacement for a pistol as a side arm for support personnel, officers and paratroopers.

As was the current M-4.

[sig226]

That was the reasoning, and the caliber worked very well for the intended mission. Unfortunately, we don’t get to use fire and manuever against insurgents.

IMO, the biggest problem is not the rifle, it’s the way it is used. My father described WW II urbam combat tactics simply.

Throw grenades into the building. Bust the door. Machine gun everything. Secure the building and move on. If you don’t want to go in the building, get tanks or guns to destroy it.

Now we prosecute soldiers because they did this during a firefight. If we’re going to send men to fight wars, we must let our guys win.