Seattle Times Editor: 'Hitler's Demands Were Not Unreasonable'

littlegreenfootballs.com ^ | May 16, 2008

[Free ThinkerNY]

Seattle Times editorial writer Bruce Ramsey, in an effort to defend Barack Obama against President Bush’s “appeasement” speech, actually ends up defending Nazi Germany, Adolf Hitler, and the Anschluss (the annexation of Austria): Bush, and His Use of ‘Appeasement’.

Democrats are rebuking President Bush for saying in his speech to the Knesset, here, that to “negotiate with terrorists and radicals” is “appeasement.” The Democrats took it as a slap at Barack Obama. What bothers me is the continual reference to Hitler and his National Socialists, particularly the British and French accommodation at the Munich Conference of 1938.

What Hitler was demanding was not unreasonable. He wanted the German-speaking areas of Europe under German authority. He had just annexed Austria, which was German-speaking, without bloodshed. There were two more small pieces of Germanic territory: the free city of Danzig and the Sudetenland, a border area of what is now the Czech Republic.

We live in an era when you do not change national borders for these sorts of reasons. But in 1938 it was different. Germany’s eastern and western borders had been redrawn 19 years before—and not to its benefit. In the democracies there was some sense of guilt with how Germany had been treated after World War I. Certainly there was a memory of the “Great War.” In 2008, we have entirely forgotten World War I, and how utterly unlike any conception of “The Good War” it was. When the British let Hitler have a slice of Czechoslovakia, they were following their historical wisdom: avoid war. War produces results far more horrible than you expected. War is a bad investment. It is not glorious. Don’t give anyone an excuse to start one.

Wow.

[goodnesswins]

Bruce Ramsey

[sionnsar]

Thanks to KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle for the ping.

Say WA? Evergreen State ping

FReepmail sionnsar if you want on or off this ping list.

Ping sionnsar if you see a Washington state related thread.

[Fox_Mulder77]

When the British let Hitler have a slice of Czechoslovakia, they were following their historical wisdom: avoid war.

That's a recipe for disaster. Why can't libs get it through their thick skulls that evil really does exist in this world. And when one comes across evil one needs to eradicate it.

Allowing evil to fester through appeasement is like giving a terrorist a nuclear bomb in mid town Manhattan.............

[Grunthor]

If you asked anyone working at the Times, they would undoubtedly agree that Bush is worse than Hitler, proving beyond the shadow of a doubt that leftist are completely nuts.

[JimSEA]

I was born during WWII but, of course, I have no direct recollection of it. I have vague memories of the War Of liberation (1948) and I clearly recall the following Arab-Israeli wars. The Arabs (Palestinians (?) as well) have many of Hitler's traits, particularly in negotiations. They just lack the cohesion — at least to this point.

[sionnsar]

I have a hard time believing that an adult wrote this, let alone an editor of a major newspaper.

The Seattle Slimes is hardly a "major newspaper." It survives only due to a joint operating agreement with another fishwrap, the Seattle Post-Intelligencer (what do you have after you lose intelligence? the P-U).

I terminated my subscription to the Slimes decades ago, and it has not improved since. The sooner this piece of trash goes under, the better. We'll at least save some trees... and maybe some liberals can get some honest employment. Not that such will awaken them.

(Now ask me how I REALLy feel... *\;-)

[Mark was here]

The NAZI’s and eugenics, the birthstone of Planned Parenthood.

[Wilhelm Tell]

He had just annexed Austria, which was German-speaking, without bloodshed

Hitler used a diabolical mixture of subversion and the threat of bloodshed to take over Austria. And the German-speaking people of Bohemia were pawns in Hitler's cynical game to destroy Czechoslovakia. The author seems to think that German-speaking people were somehow the rightful property of Hitler. Does the author really believe that since Hitler was skilful at subversion and brainwashing, that somehow made him legitimate?

[sionnsar]

I would advise everyone to read the comments, which obviously come from the last sane people in Seattle.

There are a few sane people left in Seattle but I assure you -- not many.

[AmericanExceptionalist]

It is entirely unsurprising that a member of the "progressive community" would find appeasement preferable to confrontation. What is surprising, however, is the unabashed candor with which this editorial writer admits as much. Such people usually have a better excuse for it: It is the "pragmatic" way, or the "realistic" way, or a good-faith attempt at negotiations (which the left has fetishized in recent times).

If candor is a virtue, this fellow--Bruce Ramsey--must be a very virtuous guy. Of a sort, anyway.

[jazusamo]

Thank you both for linking the piece and comments. The people responding covered everything that I could think of and more but the Times probably gave the turkey a raise.

[aruanan]

To compare the Palestinians—who are occupied, oppressed, denied, stepped-on—with Hitler’s Germany in 1939 is incredible and ridiculous .

Bruce is a moron. Nobody was comparing "Palestinians" to Hitler's Germany in 1939. Bush was comparing appeasers then with appeasers now.

[AnalogReigns]

Honestly, I kept looking for the “satire” keyword in the posting.

I’m speechless.

[doug from upland]

I think it is proper that the Seattle Times negotiate with the descendants of the native Americans from the Puget Sound area. The native Americans have every right to own the city and the building where the disgusting rag newspaper employs the disgusting writer.

Native Americans attack Seattle on January 26, 1856.
HistoryLink.org Essay 5208
On the morning of January 26, 1856, after months of raids and clashes with federal troops in southern King County and in Thurston County, Native Americans attack Seattle. Previously warned by friendly Indians, most settlers had barricaded themselves in a blockhouse. The attackers are driven off by artillery fire and by Marines from the U.S. Navy sloop-of-war Decatur, anchored in Elliott Bay. Two settlers and an unknown number of raiders perish in the all-day "Battle of Seattle."

Seattle's Treaty War

This episode in the treaty wars occurred due to Indian frustrations with with treaties pushed upon them by Territorial Governor Isaac Stevens (1818-1862).

On Sunday, October 28, 1855, Indians attacked and killed settlers in south King County and in Thurston County. Acting Governor Charles Mason ordered the formation of four companies of militia to rendezvous at Seattle. The settlers of Puget Sound built more than 60 block houses as well as stockades. In December, Indians ambushed U.S. Army Lieutenant Slaughter and killed him on Brannan’s Prairie near the future Auburn.

On orders from Indian Agent Michael T. Simmons (1814-1867), local Indian Agent Dr. David S. Maynard (1808-1873) removed 434 Indians from the Seattle area to the west side of Puget Sound. Maynard accomplished this at his own expense and with the assistance of his wife.

The Decatur

The U.S. Navy Sloop of War Decatur had been stationed in Puget Sound both in anticipation of trouble with local Indians, but also as a deterrent against Indians from Vancouver Island who regularly raided Indian and American settlements. The Decatur anchored in Elliott Bay and the crew assisted in constructing a blockhouse for Seattle. Captain Isaac L. Sterret of the Decatur contributed some Marines, two nine-pounder cannon, and 18 stands of arms to the defense effort.

Tensions eased until January 1856 when word of renewed hostilities reached Seattle. Governor Stevens arrived in Seattle aboard the U.S.S. Active on January 21 and discounted rumors of war. Less than an hour after Stevens sailed away, new information came in. Various reports credit Chief Seattle (178?-1866), his daughter Angeline (1820-1896), and Curley (Sucquardle) or Curly Jim for warning Seattle's 50 or so white residents that an attack was imminent. Chiefs Owhi and Coquilton reconnoitered the lines, disguised as friendly Indians, on the night of January 25.

In response to warnings, the Decatur's new commander, Guert Gansevoort, ordered Marines ashore early on the morning of Saturday, January 26. On being warned by Nancy (Kicumulow), Curley’s sister and Indian Jim’s mother, gunners from the Decatur lobbed a howitzer shell at the house owned by Tom Pepper on the forested crest of First Hill, believed to shelter hostiles, at about 8:30 a.m., and raiders replied with a fusillade of gunfire. Seattle residents and refugees from previous attacks in southern King County took shelter in the two blockhouses. The village also teemed with dozens of friendly Indians, including the wives and children of settlers. These people crowded into the defile along the beach for protection.

The Battle of Seattle

The guns of the Decatur fired solid shot, shells (which exploded after impact), grape shot, and canister into the trees sheltering the attackers (along where 3rd Avenue would later be built). Volunteers under militia Captain Christopher C. Hewitt contributed fire, but it was the range of the Decatur’s guns that kept the Indians at a distance.

Sporadic exchanges of fire continued until 11:45 a.m. when the Indians apparently paused to eat. The settlers took advantage of the lull to evacuate women and children to the Decatur and another ship, the Brontes. Sawmill owner Henry Yesler prevailed upon his Duwamish consort, Susan (daughter of Curley), to take refuge with their infant daughter aboard the ship, despite her objections. When settlers attempted to retrieve arms and valuables from their abandoned homes, the Indians resumed firing.

Desultory exchanges then resumed and continued all afternoon. When scouts reported that the Indians were preparing to light fire to settler dwellings, the Decatur shifted its fire to the homes, damaging several. By 10 p.m., all firing stopped.

Aftermath

The next morning found the attackers gone along with whatever settler stock, foodstuffs, and other property they could take. Two settlers were killed, Milton G. Holgate and, according to historian Clarence Bagley (quoting William Bell two days after the event), Christian White. (Phelps, writing 17 years later, stated that this second man killed was Robert Wilson.)

Estimates of the number of Indians killed varied wildly. According to Isaac Stevens, writing to Washington, settlers estimated that 200 to 500 Indians had taken the field against the settlers. T. S. Phelps, the navigator on the Decatur, put the number of enemy at 2,000, but frontier military officers often inflated the number of opposing forces to reinforce their accomplishments (or to minimize their failures). No Indian bodies were found at Seattle.

With lumber from Yesler’s mill, the residents began construction of a 3,600-foot-long stockade, two fences five feet high, 18 inches apart, and filled with earth, and another blockhouse. Within three weeks, the new fortifications were complete, along with fields of fire cleared of stumps and brush.

Snoqualmie Chief Pat Kanim solicited a bounty for the heads of those who attacked Seattle -- $80 for a chief and $20 for a warrior -- and historian Clarence Bagley notes, “During the month of February 1856, several invoices of these ghastly trophies were received and sent to [Olympia]” (Bagley, 74). Governor Stevens ordered courts martial of some 20 Indians implicated in the attack, but the evidence showed they were engaged in legitimate warfare and were discharged.

Territorial Governor Isaac Stevens and others blamed the attack on Nisqually Chief Leschi and Klickitat/Yakima Chief Owhi, both of whom were later captured. Owhi was captured and killed by troops led by Col. George Wright during the subsequent Coeur d'Alene War. Leschi eluded capture for a time, thanks in part to the non-cooperation of settlers who felt he had been falsely accused of unrelated murders. Despite a strenuous, year-long defense to save his life (argued in part by Bing Crosby's grandfather, H. R. Crosby), Leschi was hanged at Fort Steilacoom on February 19, 1858.

Governor Stevens also implicated Kitsap of the Muckleshoot and Suquamish as an instigator of the violence, but the settlers did not see it that way. Residents on the west side of Puget Sound named their new county Kitsap.

Denny Won't Go

The Territorial Volunteers only grudgingly accepted command by U.S. Army officers. When Lieutenant Arthur Denny of Company A was ordered to dispatch men to Fort Steilacoom, he refused, claiming the company was intended for local defense. He was relieved of command. The company protested his dismissal in writing and all were refused an Honorable Discharge. Only an action by the Territorial Legislature reversed this decision.

Settlers in present-day King County were never again molested, but the Battle of Seattle shook the confidence of many pioneers. In 1857, Dr. David Maynard (1808-1873), who had helped put Seattle on the map and served as King County's Indian Sub-agent, exchanged his claim to present-day Pioneer Square for Charles Terry's holdings in West Seattle, and thereby traded away a potential real estate fortune for a fleeting sense of security.

In the words of Arthur Denny, “The winter after the war closed was a period of pinching want and great privation such as was never experienced here except in the winter of 1852-53. Those who remained until the war closed were so discouraged and so much in dread of another outbreak that they were unwilling to return to their homes in the country and undertake the task of rebuilding the, and in consequence it was years before we recovered our lost ground to any extent” (Bagley, 75).

Sources:

Clarence Bagley, History of King County, Washington (Chicago: S.J. Clarke Publishing Co., 1929); Murray Morgan, Skid Road: An Informal Portrait of Seattle (New York: Viking Press, 1951); Edmond Meany, History of the State of Washington (New York: The Macmillan Company, 1909); Carl Waldman, Who Was Who In Native American History (New York: Facts on File, 1990), p. 262; N. V. Sheffer, "A Story of Pioneers," The Lynden Tribune, August 19, 1909, p. 3; Clarence Bagley, History of Seattle (Chicago: S. J. Clarke, 1916), 52-76..

Note: The information in this file on Chief Owhi was corrected on October 26, 2005. Further, this file was extensively expanded and corrected on October 12, 2006.

[TeleStraightShooter]

Good catch. They buried him.

[purpleraine]

Isn’t this the same editor who wouldn’t run the pix of the persons of interest on the Ferries in the Puget Sound?

[353FMG]

“Hitler wasn’t a bad man, he was just misunderstood. /s”

I agree — so were Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Atilla the Hun and Ghengis Khan. Their moms didn’t breastfeed them long enough.

[m1911]

I think the english speaking areas of North America should be under American control. So let’s annex Canada!

[combat_boots]

I am so glad I don’t live in Seattle anymore.

There’s an Uff Duh ;> (not Da)

Y’all are overrun with wobbly types out there. MOVE. Great scenery and magnificent wildlife/fish will not save you unless you go tote another iron stove up into the wilderness like the Iron Man of the Hoh.

[doug from upland]