Texas used seized FLDS records against polygamous sect

The Salt Lake Tribune ^ | 05/06/2008 | Brooke Adams

[MrEdd]

Census sheets found in a safe at a polygamous sect's ranch in west Texas both support and contradict the state's claim of a widespread culture of underage marriage.

Texas authorities used the sheets to convince a judge that there was a "pervasive pattern" among the FLDS of marrying underage girls to older men.

A review of the "Father's Family Information" sheets shows a handful of 16-year-old wives, 13 young monogamous couples and 24 men with multiple wives - including one man with 21 wives and 36 children.

A Texas Ranger testified about the census sheets during an April 17-18 court hearing before 51st District Judge Barbara Walther, who accepted the records as evidence despite objections from attorneys representing FLDS parents and children. The pages were recently released by the court. Sgt. Danny Crawford said the sheets were found April 5 in an office at the ranch, home to members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Texas authorities raided the ranch on April 3 after receiving reports of an abused 16-year-old, calls now being investigated as a possible hoax.

Authorities have said, however, they found evidence of a polygamous lifestyle and underage marriage practices at the ranch that supported removing 464 children.

The bishop's record sheets helped them make that case.

[brytlea]

Thank you for posting that. And I think this is important:

Judge Walther said. “It’s not a perfect solution. I wish I could give you a perfect solution. There is not one.”

It seems to me, after weeks of back and forth, that there are some on FR who want a perfect solution.

There is not one. This will be messy. But the choices appear to have been to do something or to do nothing. Any who argue that nothing should have done (and that's certainly a POV) are not going to be swayed by any argument I can think of. That leaves those who might argue about how it could have been done differently. I haven't seen any real solution from the other side. I may have missed something in all of the zillions of posts however.

susie

[hocndoc]

You’ve brought up the point few have noticed: the potential that the women and children might become hostages.

However, the actions to remove the children from the dangerous environment were actually based on interviews with underage girls, allowed — arranged — by the leaders of the cult, who claimed and wished to prove that there was no “Sarah” living among them.

During the conversations with the girls about “Sarah,” the CPS woman learned that there were several Sarahs living in the compound, that one had recently disappeared, and that the girls she talked to were either sexually abused or at risk of ritual, organized, and sanctioned sexual abuse by the adult men of the cult.

The real confusion began when women and children were asked for their names, ages, and family relationships: some were unsure until coached by the men and the same children and women would give different answers at different times!

I was surprised that the mothers were allowed to accompany their children. I don’t believe I’ve ever heard of that before in child abuse cases. The CPS workers must have believed that some of the “women” were girls and/or that all the women who desired to leave needed sanctuary from abuse.

[norton]

While I disagree regarding the reasonableness of taking action...
Thanks very much for a, rare, well stated post in their defense.

[UCANSEE2]

The Judge can’t give us a perfect solution.

If she could, there would be no need for a Judge.

I think she is trying to give us the best solution, in light of the circumstances.

[UCANSEE2]

Your comment made me consider something as well.

If the men were faithful and loyal followers of Jeffs, and were convinced what Jeffs said was true, the end of the(their) world had actually started.

What would they do, if that were the case?

I think the State had to consider that.

Of course, we saw what did happen.

I think the LE’s were surprised.

Happily surprised. But prepared they were.

[CharlesWayneCT]

I haven’t seen Mormons defending the group. I’ve seen a lot of people attack the LDS church for what is happening with the FLDS group, and I’ve seen the LDS members defending themselves. And I’ve seen some expressing the same issues I have, and in return being falsely accused of defending the group.

There could be Mormons defending the group. I recognise some, but certainly don’t know all.

As with me, the false premise that I was defending the organization may have misled you into making connections to the religion.

[norton]

Another point worth considering:

"Also why is the state releasing evidence to be used in a PENDING criminal investigation? That only buys a change of venue motion."

It might also serve to gain public support when they think it is in doubt.

[CharlesWayneCT]

As it turns out, the state was right. There was polygamy and there was abuse.

I thought the polygamy was well-known. The issue there is the state really doesn't go after polygamists unless they try to get legal documents for multiple wives -- because under the law, there is no difference between a man who takes a "spiritual wife", and the man who has an affair with his secretary.

The abuse, while it APPEARS to be true, is still an allegation. I'm not defending it, just noting that there will be a chance for the state to prevent physical evidence that, if compelling, will lead to convictions.

Slippery slope arguments are difficult, especially when that first step looks so appealing.

But it's not a fallacious argument, just one that requires work to show that there is a slope.

[Diamond]

The putting of children into foster care was not related to the monogamy or not of couples. It was related to the evidence of abuse of children observed at the compound and the duplicity of the cult members in lying to the CPS.

Since they could not determine which child belonged to whom, they had no choice but to put them in foster care until their identities could be determined.

Which of the residences/dwellings/homes pictured above were resided in by monogamous occupants with children?
Of those, which residences/dwellings/homes pictured above also contained teenage females who were observed or inferred to have been sexually assaulted or raped, the original justification for the raid?
Which of the monogamous residents of the residences/dwellings/homes pictured above lied to investigators about their identities?

The questions are rhetorical; The fact that you, the CPS, or the Court cannot answer such basic questions with any precision means that rationalization or justification of the mass raid is essentially founded upon a universal presumption of guilt, which itself is founded upon mere presumption that the residences of all the monogamous couples with children contained abused children, and that all of these monogamous couples with children lied to investigators about their identities and the identitites of their children. Given a universal presumption of guilt, it would be no suprise to me to discover that the CPS refused individual offers of proof of identity of any or all of these monogamous couples. The Court cattle call placed every child, even those of monogamous couples, into foster care without individual hearings. To say that the State had no choice in the matter when it created the stampede in the first place is like the child who murders his parents complaining that he is an orphan.

rollin rollin rollin
rollin rollin rollin
rollin rollin rollin
rollin rollin rollin
rawhiiiiiide [2]

rollin rollin rollin
though the strings are swollen
keep them doggies rollin rawhide

rain and wind and weather
hell bent for leather
wishin' my girl was by my side

all the things i'm missin'
good riddles, love and kissin'
are waitin' at the end of my ride

move 'em on
head em' up!
head em' up
move 'em on!
move 'em on
head em' up!
rawhide

cut em' out
ride 'em in!
ride 'em in
cut em' out!
cut em' out
ride 'em in
rawhiiiide [2]

keep movin' movin' movin'
though their disapprovin'
keep them doggies movin' rawhide
don't try to understand 'em
just rope, throw and brand 'em
soon will be livin' high and wide

my hearts calculatin'
my true love will be waitin'
be waitin' at the end of my ride

move 'em on
head em' up!
head em' up
move 'em on!
move 'em on
head em' up!
rawhide [2]

cut em' out
ride 'em in!
ride 'em in
cut em' out!
cut em' out
ride 'em in
rawhide

yaaaaaaaaaaah!!!

[long pause]

move 'em on
head em' up!
head em' up
move 'em on!
move 'em on
head em' up
rawhide

cut em' out
ride 'em in!
ride 'em in
cut em' out!
cut em' out
ride 'em in
rawhiiiiiiiiide [2]

rollin rollin rollin
rollin rollin rollin yaaaaaaaaaaah!!!
rollin rollin rollin
rollin rollin rollin yaaaaaaaaaaah!!!
rawhii yaaaaaaaaaaah!!! iiiide

yaaaaaaaaaaah!!!

Cordially,

[takenoprisoner]

“You’ve brought up the point few have noticed: the potential that the women and children might become hostages.”

I already consider them hostages. Afterall, they are in state custody.

While some might consider the word of a CPS worker as the gospel, obviously I am not one of them.

What the state seeks to do in this case is to re-indoctrinate these children into a new secular environment.
I am confident you are aware of this. Does this not give you pause?

Here they will learn having two mommies or two daddies is perfectly ok. (Just not having one daddy with multiple mommies...that is bad bad bad.) They will learn how to use a condom to aid in the prevention of STDs. They will learn how to utilize birth control products and methods. They will learn how they can have an abortion if the products and methods should fail, or they failed to use them properly. They will learn the proper use of slang and other vulgarities of the secular world. They will experience the use of illicit drugs and alcohol.

Of course, under the guidance of the secular proxy mommies and daddies some may go on to receive a proper education to lead a prosperous, productive, and happy life. But then others may become drug addicted prostitutes on some sleazey urban street. We both know there is no way to accurately predict their outcome. If the state has the perfect formula, then we should all be turning our children over to the state for a proper outcome. But we all know the state is morbidly as well as morally deficient in this regard.

Finally, while many are convinced these children are being sexually abused simply based on what CPS workers contend, thus far, the state has failed to charge anyone for anything. It’s been over a month now. What’s the problem? The problem is the state has overreached seizing hostages to fish for a party or parties willing to claim abuse. Surely we can expect someone at sometime will be charged with something to justify this act of terrorism upon women and children.

[brytlea]

It’s all we humans can do. Perfect justice comes from another source.

susie

[CindyDawg]

What do you think? Will they go after the women too?

[CindyDawg]

Your mind seems made up so I would be wasting my time responding to your post. Let’s just see what happens,ok?

[UCANSEE2]

“Will they go after the women too?”

Nobody else answered.

I think they court (or the defense) would require competency hearings before charges are made against the women, and maybe even the men.

If fumarase deficiency is spread throughout the community, the ones who are retarded might be excepted from any charges.

I don’t think they will press charges against any of the women, at all.

We will have to wait and see what Texas does.

So far, so good.

[CindyDawg]

Let's , for now, just talk about those that aren't mentally challenged. I hear that, well they were allowing abuse..but they were victims too. Yeah but were the guys also? As you say...each must be looked at separately but probation with supervision of present and future children might not really be a punishment for those that are able to change. Any of these woman or men that are convicted of abuse and has no intention of changing needs to go to jail though, IMO.

[hocndoc]

I believe the adult women are probably guilty. After a certain age - and I’m not sure what that age is, but at least by 35 or so - we should be mature enough and have empathy enough to realize when injustice is being done. Not protecting your own daughter should be a crime. Would we forgive the mothers, grandmothers, and aunts who circumcise Muslim daughters, taking the clitoris and sewing the foreshortened labia closed?

My worry is whether the FLDS will go after the women who have returned to the cult compound. Will they start disappearing?

[prayforpeaceofJerusalem]

In this cult, he deals with it by making them his plural wives -they have to obey his every word and whim.

[CindyDawg]

I think it’s interesting that in many of the photos a young women usually has an older women (or 2) at her side.

[takenoprisoner]

“My worry is whether the FLDS will go after the women who have returned to the cult compound. Will they start disappearing?”

Just when you seemed to hold a hint of credibility comes this utter non-sense. Do you have a legitimate basis for your fear? If you do,this might be a good time to share it.

[hocndoc]

This thread
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2008418/posts
has links to the story of the young man who took care of Jeffs’ women and children — his own wife and child disappeared.

The cult has a history of moving women around to conceal the way that they live and giving them to men other than the former husband.