Posted on 05/06/2008 5:16:55 AM PDT by MrEdd
Census sheets found in a safe at a polygamous sect's ranch in west Texas both support and contradict the state's claim of a widespread culture of underage marriage.
Texas authorities used the sheets to convince a judge that there was a "pervasive pattern" among the FLDS of marrying underage girls to older men.
A review of the "Father's Family Information" sheets shows a handful of 16-year-old wives, 13 young monogamous couples and 24 men with multiple wives - including one man with 21 wives and 36 children.
A Texas Ranger testified about the census sheets during an April 17-18 court hearing before 51st District Judge Barbara Walther, who accepted the records as evidence despite objections from attorneys representing FLDS parents and children. The pages were recently released by the court. Sgt. Danny Crawford said the sheets were found April 5 in an office at the ranch, home to members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Texas authorities raided the ranch on April 3 after receiving reports of an abused 16-year-old, calls now being investigated as a possible hoax.
Authorities have said, however, they found evidence of a polygamous lifestyle and underage marriage practices at the ranch that supported removing 464 children.
The bishop's record sheets helped them make that case.
(Excerpt) Read more at sltrib.com ...
This happens on many of these threads. I have been asked, accused, and it has been subtly suggested I am Mormon for whatever reason and so have many others who kindly say they are not and move on,, or say they are and move on. I am not even here defending any of the accusations or assertions in regards to law breaking.
Just seems someone always comes to a FLDS thread and insinuates the same thing. Maybe going back over previous threads (just search flds in keywords) and you can make yourself a list of Mormons here so you can perpetuate your disinformation/information with better resourcing. In that way, you won’t have people repeating themselves, and you can carry on your efforts to substantiate the theory you somehow think is unique.
In any event, once your list is complete perhaps you can lobby to have yellow stars associated with Mormons, and perhaps then we can move on to identify every Jewish person with a blue star, and every Catholic...........
Mr Hyperbole is not always your friend
It is illegal to rape little girls.
Why are you so fixated on this being a case of religious persecution? It has nothing to do with their religion and everything to do with breaking the law.
You are tying yourself in knots defending this group and trying to find some kind of reason or technicality as to why they are not wrong and why the CPS had no business rescuing those children.
They were wrong and you are too. Those children were being abused and deserved to be rescued from that sex slave ring that they were being raised in.
The fact that you are unwilling to admit to yourself that they were wrong reveals a lot more about you than I think you realize.
There is no excuse for the atrocities that that cult has inflicted on those children and there’s no reason why they should not have been taken out of there. The only travesty about the whole situation is that this didn’t happen years ago before even more kids had been abused.
Get it through your head. This is about criminal activity,nothing more and nothing less. The state of Texas is the only entity that can legally deal with criminal activity. What they did in removing those children was right and what they were legally bound to do.
“13 young monogamous couples
They all had to start this way... “
Yeah, but they aren’t living in flds land, to remain that way.
Hope is to be assigned a 2nd and 3rd wife. By pleasing the prophet, or the bishop.
But in the post I was responding to, you said, and I quote, "So I guess you are not a Mormon?"
So, when is a guess not a guess?
It sure looks like you were guessing that I was not a Mormon. And it was a good guess, because I am not a Mormon.
I can't say I'm concerned about whatever "hostility" you feel the LDS church has toward my church, much less how the FLDS feels about anything. I certainly see nothing particularly redeeming in anything that has been revealed about the FLDS cult, although in general I'd rather not comment on other people's religious beliefs in a political setting like this, so I try to avoid it where possible, except when I slip up.
“American cultural norm, if we can even define that anymore.”
There’s an understatement if I ever saw one.
: )
Sure, jump into a conversation and drag it off to your favorite subject. Why not, everybody else is. Stick to straw-man arguments that are easy to win. Do you actually believe there is a single person on FR who disagrees with you that “it is illegal to rape little girls”? But it certainly is an easier proposition to defend then, say, discussing how much proof the government has a right to require in order for you to get your kids back if they take them from you.
The poster I’m responding to just said that it was criminal to be a member of this cult — meaning that joining this cult, without partaking in ANY practice whatsoever, should be enough to get you thrown in jail.
This has nothing to do with any other reason you might be thrown in jail. I specifically asked if simply being a member of FLDS is enough to make you a criminal.
I am of the opinion that you are a criminal if you commit CRIMINAL ACTS, not because you are a member of a cult.
This has nothing to do with defending anybody. It’s a question of criminality being associated with thoughts or beliefs rather than actions.
If CPS acted improperly, it did so regardless of what this group did or did not do. If the CPS acted wrongly, it has nothing to do with technicalities, or reasons relative to the group. It has to do with the actions of the CPS.
I do not think that the horrible allegations against the FLDS can be used to justify inappropriate action by the CPS, assuming there was any such inappropriate action. Therefore, it is absurd to insist that anybody alleging inappropriate action by the CPS is defending what the FLDS is alleged to have done.
I realise that is a more complex argument to have than “it is illegal to rape little girls”. But I find it more interesting to discuss things that actually have two sides, rather than mislabel the opposition’s position to score cheap points. Nobody learns anything from that.
BTw, I’m back.
I have read all the posts, and caught back up.
There wasn't any inappropriate action on the part of the CPS.
They investigated a complaint as they are bound by law to do. They encountered evidence of abuse, which they are bound to act on.
There is no choice for them. They had no options.
They cannot hand children back to adults who are not their biological parents or legal guardians. Since they had no way to determine that because of the duplicity of the cult members, they had no choice but to take the kids and put them in foster care until DNA testing could identify the parents.
It’s a question of criminality being associated with thoughts or beliefs rather than actions.
No it isn't> In this case, it's a matter of criminality being associated with actions. If you can figure out a way for minor girls to become pregnant that does not involve sexual abuse, by all means, inform the CPS and state of Texas. Nobody here is being persecuted for their religious beliefs. The children were taken because of evidence of abuse in the compound.
You can't take some from an abusive setting and leave the others behind to be abused next. You can't base it on immediately visible signs of abuse because not all signs of abuse are readily apparent under a cursory exam.
Texas CPS was right in what it did. There are no two sides to an issue in the case of statutory rape. I'm appalled that anyone would think that the subject is even up for debate.
The putting of children into foster care was not related to the monogamy or not of couples. It was related to the evidence of abuse of children observed at the compound and the duplicity of the cult members in lying to the CPS.
Since they could not determine which child belonged to whom, they had no choice but to put them in foster care until their identities could be determined.
If the flds people don’t like that, they can remember that they brought it on themselves by playing games with investigators.
SOME members claim they had birth certificates, marriage licenses, that they were monogamous, that they didn't believe in the arranged marriages or marriage before 18, but they were treated identically to those who tried to hide things.
The generalization of the specific claims made against some members to EVERY member is the heart of the argument, and cannot be dismissed by assuming the conclusion.
As to your insistance that "there wasn't any inappropriate action", that to is an argument under discussion, and you can't dismiss it by assuming the conclusion you like. However, as it was not an argument I was making here, I won't bother to continue it.
It's easier than typing out flds cultist members every time.
Besides, they live and act and think like one person.
And if I didn't do this before and just forget, I will try not to bother with you anymore, as your last statement is ANOTHER straw man, a dispicable attempt to put words in my mouth rather than dealing with the argument I actually made.
However, if someone was accused of statutory rape, and the police tortured them with electric shocks to get them to confess, it would be appropriate to condemn the police, and doing so would not be a defense of the rapist. I'm afraid to ask -- would you justify torture to get a confssion from someone who was a rapist?
OOh look! a hoard of pedophile wannabees that want children left with potential rapists in child rape cases while the authorities look into the charges.
Are they just wannabees? They seem awful eager to have those children stay right there.
Fair representation of your post, TNP.
Don't leave out the whole truth when you lionize Marriage in India.
“However, if someone was accused of statutory rape, and the police tortured them with electric shocks to get them to confess, it would be appropriate to condemn the police, and doing so would not be a defense of the rapist. I’m afraid to ask — would you justify torture to get a confssion from someone who was a rapist? “
NOW, you just did the same thing you have accused everyone else of doing.
Excellent point.
susie
What if... what if... what if.....
What if someone stopped living in a fantasy land of make believe scenarios and tried dealing with reality for a change?
Did you mean me, him, or both?
: )
Not you.
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