Posted on 04/16/2008 12:50:48 PM PDT by keats5
Hearing the FLDS mothers complain about having their families ripped from them is bitterly ironic to Richard Holm.
"The families there have been stolen and kidnapped from their fathers," he told the Deseret News on Tuesday.
Holm was kicked out of the church in 2003 by its leader, Warren Jeffs, and his two wives and children were told to leave him. They were placed with his brother.
"They (FLDS leaders) are guilty of what they're accusing the authorities of doing," Holm said.
Under Jeffs, dozens of men were told to "repent from a distance" for various sins. Some left the FLDS Church and have been speaking out against the polygamous sect, while others continue to be seeking penance and hope to be allowed back in.
Hundreds of teenagers also have been kicked out or run away from the polygamous sect. Known as the "Lost Boys," some have wound up living on the streets or crashing in crowded apartments. Some have turned to drugs or crime.
Those who work with the "Lost Boys" say the children are viewing what happened in Texas as another raid.
(Excerpt) Read more at deseretnews.com ...
Not missing the point ... the point has not been ultimately made. There is alot of buzz and rumor and not much action except for the raid and removal of children. Has any man from the sect been charged and/or arrested for forcing marriage on adolescent girls? Have any rape charges been filed? What of the mothers that allowed this to be done?
Our government has broken-up an entire community and is parceling-out children to foster care without any charges against the adults. That is disturbing on a number of levels.
Please understand that I am in no way defending the way of life of these folks, but I am very suspicious of the government's action. What if your neighbor was suspected of impregnating the underaged daughter of another neighbor, and as a result of the suspicion CPS and the Sheriff's office came and took your children and every other child in the subdivision? Would that be okay too?
A lot of young girls end up needing a C section. I wonder if any pregnant women ever got transfered to the hospital. The baby and mom would be matched if so.
Not only will TX need volunteer lawyers to rep everyone, they will need vol psychologists to help these people recover.
My guess is that the cult leaders would let an adolescent girl and/or her full term baby die in childbirth before they’d take her to a hospital, if they weren’t confident she could pass for being over 16. There is reportedly a doctor and clinic within the compound, and it may be that C-sections can be performed there, though probably not very safely. But I don’t know that hospitals would retain any blood samples or other identifying material from the mother (i.e. I think they still take babies’ footprints routinely, but presumably they don’t fingerprint mothers). So while hospital records could probably identify babies that were born there and have the correct birth date, I’m not at all sure they could match a mother to the baby.
Maybe some OB nurses will show up. Mom,s thumb print used to be taken.
It’s hard to figure out what would constitute “justice” for the women. They’ve been perpetrators and active enablers of some really horrible things, and yet when you consider how most of them were brutally brainwashed from infancy themselves, they look more like victims than willing perpetrators.
Texas has its hands full with this case, but is to be commended for forging ahead with a best effort to do the right thing, even though they’re a long way from figuring out exactly how to manage the process for a good outcome. When you know that hundreds of children are being brutally beaten and sexually abused, you simply have to go out on a limb and stop it NOW, and figure out what to do with them afterwards.
I sort of doubt that mothers’ prints are still being taken. Many people are very wary of that sort of thing nowadays, for a variety of reasons (general paranoia and illegal immigrant status probably being the 2 main reasons, where women in maternity wards are concerned).
the religion clause in the 1st amendment.
I’m not talking about religion.
I’m talking about a sex/money racket with these creepy clowns. And with Muziers—an ideology.
Nope they have no right to sexually exploit women/girls. NO Constitution I know allows that. Except maybe one drawn up by Hugh Hefner and Osama Bin Laden.
As for “ghettoizing” these punks: now way. Prison or deportation.
As the LDS church considers itself Christian And accepts the authority of the Bible They are obligated to act “Under Authority” Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's Render unto God that which is God's Jesus’ own words, by their tradition
Also:
Joseph Smith's words. I have absolutely no idea how the FLDS folks can possibly justify their behavior.
“Has any man from the sect been charged and/or arrested for forcing marriage on adolescent girls?”
The former leader, and self-described prophet, Warren Jeffs, is in a federal penitentiary for ‘accomplice to sex with a minor’.
In July 2005 eight men of the church were indicted for sexual contact with minors. At least some of them surrendered to police in Kingman, Arizona.
On July 29, 2005, Brent Jeffs filed suit accusing three of his uncles, including Warren Jeffs, of sexually assaulting him when he was a child.
In 2003, the church received increased attention from the state of Utah when police officer Rodney Holm, a member of the church, was convicted of unlawful sexual conduct with a 16- or 17-year-old and one count of bigamy for his marriage to and impregnation of plural wife Ruth Stubbs.
Any children the mother had can be transferred to anyone of the PROPHET’s choosing.
“Our government has broken-up an entire community and is parceling-out children to foster care without any charges against the adults.”
So far. For their safety, and to finish the investigation, lab tests, etc.
Charges may be pending. We don’t know.
Should the next to impossible happen, and your scenario occur, then I am sure I would be outraged, and demand my child back.
But at least I would have something the women of the FLDS don’t.
It would be my child, and not a child produced by unknown parents, whose name I wasn’t even sure of.
Thanks for the info on this waterboarding stuff.
Just when I thought it couldn’t get any worse.
In Texas, the mother’s right index finger print is taken.
Worst post you have ever written.
I'm not referring to past years in other states. Let's stick to the current raid in Eldorado, if you don't mind.
"The mothers had no choice in this."
Of course they did. There are "ex" cult members all over the media.
"I would say that that will never happen. A regular neighborhood, and the confines of a walled citadel where ‘outsiders’ are not allowed, is not the same thing."
How can you feel so confident that it will never happen, when it is happening to your fellow citizens right now? There are gated communities all over this country where people who do not live there are not allowed access without permission. You seem to believe that because these folks aren't 'normal' within your definitions, that they are not entitled to the same constitutional rights as you. That is the chilling aspect of this situation.
"Should the next to impossible happen, and your scenario occur, then I am sure I would be outraged, and demand my child back."
Let's assume that your outrage is ignored by everyone else because they don't think that you live appropriately. There are no charges filed against you, but your children are being placed in foster care. We are all fully behind the taking of your children because you are strange and don't believe what we believe. Not a very good feeling, is it?
Rebellous women are even sent to an institution if their husbands can't control them.
The whole lifestyle is sick and PERVERTED. These children never grow up and have a chance to make their own decisions. By that time, it's too late. Being twenty years old with no education and two or three kids, no friends on the outside, no way to leave - I call that iimprisonment.
Please take notice of the fact that many of these women have elected to return to their homes after having been safely escorted out of their hellhole.
I wonder how many of the women that, to this point, are remaining in custody with their children, would return to the compound if released with their kids today.
Many would return. Most would return. How in the hell is a woman who has never lived in the outside world supposed to raise six kids with a fourth grade education? Don't you know anything about why abusive women stay with abusive husbands?
These women speak like children. They are never allowed to think for themselves.
There were two young teen girls who left one of the other compounds a few years ago. One is doing well, but the other returned. She couldn't cope with having to make daily life decisions, for starters. She was overwhelmed. Even simple things like making clothing choices, what she was going to eat, what she was going to do, etc., proved difficult. And I think it was determined that they had about fourth or fifth grade educations. That's a lot of making up to do.
This is so different from - say - the Amish, whose children do live and interract somewhat with the outside world, and are given some choices in their lives, and who at least have eighth grade educations. Their women seem strong and capable. These women in this sect just seem so pathetic. It's heartbreaking.
With all due respect, you didn’t answer the question. Do you support raiding homes and taking children without any charges being filed? It is fairly safe to say that most of us don’t agree with the way that these people live. That doesn’t make what the government is doing right or legal under our system of justice.
First, I’m sure I’ve written stuff that actually is worse.
Second, I presume you disagree with my statement, care to explain why, or do you believe your reasoning to be self-evident?
There are bad people in the world, who do bad things. Given a choice between a bad person doing something evil, and my GOVERNMENT doing the same evil think under force of law, I would prefer the evil be done by individuals that I am not responsible for, and who can then be punished, than the government that we all count on to be the ones to implement justice and provide punishment to the evildoers.
If there WAS going to be a mass murderer like Ted Bundy, are you saying that you would rather have had the GOVERNMENT as the mass murderer, instead of an evil man we could arrest, try, convict, and put to death?
Because that’s what it means to disagree with what I said.
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