Posted on 04/15/2008 10:27:22 AM PDT by Snickering Hound
ELDORADO — Mothers separated from their children as part of a wide-ranging abuse investigation within a polygamist retreat accuse state officials of misleading them before taking their offspring into custody.
Authorities raided the sect's ranch more than a week ago in response to allegations that underage girls were forced to marry older men. Women and children from the secretive community were taken to a West Texas fort-turned-museum and a rodeo pavilion, but on Monday officials began separating women and some of their offspring without warning, members of the sect said.
While some women and children were taken from the shelters to the nearby San Angelo Coliseum, other women were allowed to return to the ranch — but only those who were childless or had children under the age of 5.
About three dozen of the women who returned to the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ranch spoke out Monday, after 11 days in temporary shelters. They said in interviews that police surrounded them Monday and gave them a choice between returning home, or relocating to a women's shelter.
"It just feels like someone is trying to hurt us," said Paula, 38, who like other members of the sect declined to give her full name. "I do not understand how they can do this when they don't have a for sure knowledge that anyone has abused these children."
Marissa Gonzales, a spokeswoman for the Department of Family and Protective Services, said the move was a typical procedure taken by the agency.
"It is not the normal practice to allow parents to accompany the child when an abuse allegation is made," Gonzales said.
Brenda, a 37-year-old mother of two teenage boys, said the women were threatened with arrest if they resisted the court order. Previously, the women had been told they would stay with the children at least until Thursday, when a custody hearing is scheduled, she said.
A call to CPS for comment late Monday on the women's claims was not immediately returned.
CPS's closing of the shelters came a day after three mothers from the ranch petitioned Gov. Rick Perry to inspect the shelters to see firsthand how families were being treated. The women said the living conditions were cramped and that some of the children had become sick.
About 20 children were recovering from a mild case of chicken pox, said Dr. Sandra Guerra-Cantu with the state Health Department.
Perry spokesman Robert Black said the governor did not believe the children were being housed in poor conditions at the West Texas fort.
"Let's be honest here, this is not the Ritz," Black said. But he called the accommodations "clean and neat."
CPS said officials have been planning the move for a week but that the coliseum was unavailable earlier. About two dozen teenage boys were moved to a facility outside San Angelo with the judge's permission, CPS said. The location was not released.
The state is accusing the sect of physically and sexually abusing the youngsters and wants to strip their parents of custody and place the children in foster care or put them up for adoption. The sheer size of the case was an obstacle.
"Quite frankly, I'm not sure what we're going to do," state District Judge Barbara Walther said after a conference that included three to four dozen attorneys either representing or hoping to represent youngsters.
Brenda and others were critical of CPS, saying the agency misled them as to what was to happen Monday, weren't told why the children were removed from the compound and given inaccurate messages about opportunities to meet attorneys.
"We got to where we said, 'We cannot believe a word you say. We cannot trust you,'" she said.
Officials said the investigation began with a call from a young girl who has yet to be located by CPS. The women in the sect said they suspect she may be a bitter ex-member of the church.
The FLDS practice polygamy in arranged marriages, sometimes between underage girls and older men. The group has thousands of followers in two side-by-side towns in Arizona and Utah.
The church has repeatedly fought because of its lifestyle before. Men, women and children have been swept up in raids that took place in 1935, 1944 and 1953.
"It's been all through history, " said Brenda, the mother of two. "We were just here trying to live a peaceful, happy, sweet life. We don't understand why we can't do this freely."
That falls under the “hysterical posts” column.
I want to make it clear on post #340 that the last 2 italicized comments are citations from GreyFoxx39.
No, your original post to an article saying that original tip may have been a hoax was part of the hoax hysteria. ("Why, I'll latch on to anything at this point to make this just 'go away'")
And then when you followed that right up with your "fishy" comment just because the victim was no longer on the premises makes me wonder if you always think culprits & perps keep victims on site when they know law enforcement folks are on their way over.
Some. Just what percentage is 'some'? [Elsie]
Hey some men & women weren't married for the umpteenth time until they were of ripe mellowed "grave" age. Over 200 women were sealed to be married for eternity to Joseph Smith in special temple ceremonies after his death. Stanley S. Ivins says Brigham Young was sealed to over 150 already-deceased women!
According to the Changing World of Mormonism (p. 234), which cited LDS apostle Stanley S. Ivins...the Endowment House Records reveal that on November 22, 1870, Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt had himself sealed to 101 dead women. On November 29, 1870, he was sealed to 109 dead women.
Orson Pratt's brother, Parley P. Pratt (the ancestor of Mitt Romney): "The same day (November 29, 1870) 91 dead women were sealed to his brother, Parley P. Pratt, who had died in 1857."
According to Changing World: Mr. Ivins found that the St. George Temple records show that Wilford Woodruff—who later became the fourth president of the church—was sealed to 189 dead women in a period of slightly over two years (January 29, 1879 to March 14, 1881).
Moses Franklin Farnsworth was sealed to 345 dead women in a two-year period. At one time we thought that Mr. Farnsworth held the record for the largest number of dead women sealed to him. New evidence, however, has forced us to revise that conclusion. On April 5, 1894, the Apostle Abraham Cannon recorded the following in his diary: THURSDAY, APRIL 5th, 1894.... I met with the Quorum and Presidency in the temple.... President Woodruff then spoke ... "In searching out my genealogy I found about four hundred of my femal[e] kindred who were never married. I asked Pres. Young what I should do with them. He said for me to have them sealed to me unless there were more that [than?] 999 of them. the doctrine startled me, but I had it done ..." ("Daily Journal of Abraham H. Cannon," April 5, 1894, vol. 18, pp.66-67, Brigham Young University Library). [Changing World, pp. 234-236]
Further documentation re: above as to Smith & Young: In the Preface to the second edition of her book No Man Knows My History, Fawn Brodie states: "...over two hundred women, apparently at their own request, were sealed as wives to Joseph Smith after his death in special temple ceremonies. Moreover, a great many distinguished women in history, including several Catholic saints, were also sealed to Joseph Smith in Utah. I saw these astonishing lists in the Latter-day Saint Genealogical Archives in Salt Lake City in 1944." The Apostle John A. Widtsoe admitted that women were sealed to Joseph Smith after his death and without his approval: "After the death of the Prophet, women applied for the privilege of being sealed to him for eternity.... To these requests, assent was often given....Women no longer living, whether in Joseph's day or later, have also been sealed to the Prophet for eternity" (Evidences and Reconciliations, Single Volume Edition, 1960, pp.342-43).[Changing World, p. 232]
In an article published in Western Humanities Review (vol. 10, pp.232-33), Stanley S. Ivins observed that "Brigham Young is usually credited with only twenty-seven wives, but he was sealed to more than twice that many living women, and to at least 150 more who had died." The Mormon writer John J. Stewart lists the names of fifty-three women who were sealed to Brigham Young, and then he adds: "There were perhaps one or two others, plus the some 150 women whom he had sealed to him; also a few women who were sealed to him after his death" (Brigham Young and His Wives, p.96)...[Changing World, p. 233]
You care nothing about whether the raid was Constitutional?
And there are larger questions of principle here, but what I keep coming back to is the brutality of the action of the authorities cult leaders and the effect of that brutality on the children.
You're worried about kids being ripped from their mothers? Don't you realize that is exactly what goes on there? They trade wives and children like trading cards. They reassign families among the men as they please. Some of these kids don't even know who their mothers are; they call them all *Mom*.
Why no condemnation for the cult when THEY do it?
The government is at least doing DNA testing to find out which child belongs to which mother. Is the cult?
And, your source for this statement? So, you applaud a community which in your words, "has found a way to circumvent laws against polygamy," but the state is "dead wrong" to enforce laws?
Thanks for your candor.
Meanwhile, the government waves through millions of illegal aliens from who knows where during wartime, our borders are a national embarrassment, costing Americans billions, not to mention what a national security disaster this has become, we have tens of thousands of violent organized gangs murdering people in our streets daily etc. All of this is compromising and undermining every aspect of our entire system ....
Based on the above, it would seem our government and those who run it have become one of the strangest cults, or groups in this country.
I have seen their interviews on the tube and I will give you a straight-up observation, they are definitely not dealing with a full deck. They all have their crazed-cult-washed over look. They are quite different from the Mormon young gentlemen that used to come through my old neighborhood when I was younger-*(they were cute, clean cut, they had the all-american look)*/Just Asking - seoul62.........
Possibly, however the current flap reinforces the 150-year-old mantra of "persecution" for the faithful to cling to. This was posted yesterday:
Tanks? Trucks? Sorry, but you lost credibility with those falsehoods.
Yes. As the attorneys present their cases, I'll be quite interested in their constitutional arguments. Certainly you've have said that it's important for the state to get it right or they also jeopardize future cases where authorities need to respond to real "cries of wolf!"
Beyond that, tho, I simply find it odd that the overwhelming slew of responses from some posters sounds like they are affiliates of the regional ACLU.
My point, in this regard, is that if I had a neighbor who trespassed onto my property because he sincerely believed that one or multiple rapes had occurred and that continued such violence could recur...and he was attempting ot pre-empt further said actions...my first, second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. kneejerk reactions would NOT be to pull out the private property protections as found in the Fifth Amendment, or civil & criminal codes which speak on criminal trespass or espouse private property protections.
My first impulse would be to protect the alleged victims. And, if my property was trespassed upon to protect them (a pure motivation), I'm not going to get all ACLU-like as my initial response. (Even if it came out later that the neighbor had incomplete information, I still would not automatically ascribe "bad faith" to him like I've seen a number of FReeper posters do).
I think you might be right. All the right words are being used:
Cult
Compound
Child abuse
etc
All they need is a meth lab or some type of drug connection.
And actual crimes may go unpunished as a result.
The protections enacted by our Founders were to prevent injustices in the pursuit of justice. If the Texas authorities can't follow the rules, then they deserve to be ineffective and held responsible for the resulting harm and lack of prosecution.
Great Britain is toying with the idea of creating a massive database of the DNA of every person in their nation. Think of the crime-solving potential.
Texas is in need of such a database as probably the most effective means of finding out who fathered whom. Torture of the accused might be effective also, but we don't allow that nor would many of us support it.
One need only look at the behemoth created by social security numbers to see that a DNA database would be a very bad idea.
In all those pictures of the weeping women I don’t see many wedding rings. hmmm...Are these gals the rejects?
You must be a man. Every woman knows Kleenex can best be carried down in the bra. No need for a box.
Details, details.
Yes. As the attorneys present their cases, I'll be quite interested in their constitutional arguments. Certainly you've have said that it's important for the state to get it right or they also jeopardize future cases where authorities need to respond to real "cries of wolf!"
Thank you, I think you are dead on. For saying that I and others have been accused as being uncaring rapists and pedophiles who enjoy seeing young girls being impregnated by older men. Thus my earlier reference to hysterical posts.
Sect members took the photos and video during the first few days of a seven-day raid that involved police agencies from six counties, the Texas Rangers, the state highway patrol and wildlife officers. Authorities were looking for a teenage girl who had reported being abused by her 50-year-old husband.
A sect member whose wife shot the video said ranch residents quickly got the impression that state officials "were doing something more than they said they were going to do." The man declined to give his name for fear that speaking out would cause problems for his children, who are in state custody.
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