Posted on 02/23/2008 10:56:29 AM PST by Bob J
Ever since Super Tuesday a super debate has been raging on FR concerning John McCain. I was never a McCain supporter, in fact I penned the post Super Tuesday post "Official FR Drinking Thread" so we could together drown our common disappointments into oblivion.
FReepers seem to be moving into three distinct groups. The first are those that have always supported McCain, a lot or partially. There are those that don't like McCain but are willing to support him because they believe they will get some of what they want or to defeat what the see as the more critical danger, Obama or Clinton. The there's the third group, those that viscerally dislike McCain and vow never to vote for him for any reason.
The actions and motivation for support from the first two groups seem obvious...they would rather see McCain in the White House than a dem. But for the life of me I cannot understand some of the actions of the third.
Allow me to explain.
I understand you dislike McCain and the reasons why. He is far too liberal on many issues, he has stabbed conservatives in the back several times and he is too cozy with the dems. These are all defensible reasons to not vote for him or to vote third party and you have every right to vote as you see fit and for whatever reasons you hold. What I don't understand is why some here are making such concerted efforts to dissuade others from voting for or supporting him.
As flawed as McCain is there is no way a logical case can be made that we would be better off under Obama or Hillary (O&H). Even on most issues where McCain is closer to the left than to us, O&H are much farther to the left than he is and would do much more damage than McCain. On the issues where he is not, the WOT, taxes, abortion, etc., the differences are stark and this does not even take into count extended issues like judicial appointments.
So why are you working so hard, so viscerlly, so nasty, to turn votes against McCain? If you truly feel as you do than go sit out November or cast your vote for your 3rd party candidate. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why you push for a McCain and GOP loss.
It may be as simple as "misery loves company". It may be that you validate your own position by getting others to believe as you do. It may be that there are some dem propaganda plants on FR. I don't know but I sure would like to and I know others do as well.
I don’t see that many people trying to dissuade others from voting for McCain. As a matter of fact, I see quite the opposite. I see more of those who support McCain trying to browbeat those who refuse to do so. I agree with you, to each his own.
I think what we are seeing involves individuals who loathe the idea of once again voting for “the lesser of the two evils”. They would like, for once, to have a candidate they can vote for, rather than just cast a vote against the opposition. We can discuss the logical decision and the reality all we like, but they see it differently.
Many of these people see what is coming, no matter who is elected of the remaining three. Regardless of which of the remaining three is elected they will support policies that will change the demographics in such a way as they are going to be powerless and on the outside looking in. When you feel betrayed or hurt by one of your own it is far worse than the same from the opposition. This is what you are seeing and McCain has done little or nothing to change that.
He has work to do, a lot of work to do. Many people are not going to get out and vote just to vote against Obama or Hillary. He better start talking about real border security and enforcing of our existing laws. Do you want to face the opposition and see the knife coming or do you want to be stabbed in the back? I think you can understand that and I think that is the reasoning of those whom you say you cannot understand.
It is McCain’s fault, not the fault of those who can’t in good conscience support him. He has much work to do and I do not see him doing it. He is just egomaniacal enough to believe he doesn’t need the Conservative base or evangelicals. He better think again and get to work.
Unforgettable...in so many sickening ways-— that’s what he is. Whether the wins or loses is not my group’s - group 3 - responsibility.
It’s his own’s.
Right now - no way. He has not a snowball’s chance in hell to make it to the WH. Unless a total meltdown among the Demos happens...could.
I voted for obama in the primary and will vote for McCain in the general. I’m sure that I’m not the only one.
Also, a lot can happen between now and November.
The reason i can support McCain is because I believe he will deliver Sandra Day O’Conner types to the SC. This is not good, but much better than what the democrats, who would give us...Ruth bader Ginsburg.
The trouble I have with John McCain, and one that still has not been properly resolved to my satisfaction, is howcum he was the darling of the New York Times, earning their endorsement in January and early February, while all the time they were holding this story (which is bogus and incendiary to the extreme, and poorly sourced at that), and they choose NOW to release it? If they are going to release real but derogatory information, first collect it and verify from reliable sources, sources which may be independently contacted for corroboration. And for this, the sources should be made available, else it is correct to challenge the veracity of the assertion in the first place.
The New York Times has played hopscotch all around this First Amendment issue, claiming “freedom of the press” which apparently includes the freedom to make up just about anything the editors deem appropriate for their agenda. This is shouting “Fire!” in a crowded theater, then handing out gasoline to fight the fire.
Repudiate any support you have now, or have gotten in the past from the NYT, John, before I can in good conscience consider you a serious contender for my vote. There is no “kiss and make up” on this one.
With luck, the parent company supporting the NYT will go broke and be in receivership within the decade. Then a REAL “paper of record” may be established in New York and the nation.
“On the issues where he is not, the WOT, taxes, abortion, etc., the differences are stark and this does not even take into count extended issues like judicial appointments.”
There is no proof of any “STARK” diiferences.
Not really. Sometimes (many times), a conservative can be pragmatic.
I have been always saying to the McCain supporters on FR not to spend time and energy convincing the people who hate McCain to vote for him, they will not, and at the end McCain does not need their vote in order to win.
And, of course, all the candidates see talk radio as a target for the fairness doctrine.
Thank you for the endorsement of those refusing to vote for the old fart McCain. They are trying to bring the party back to where it is suppose to be.
Like it or not, the Republican Party's agenda is seen as the conservative agenda. To put a hawkish Democrat as our party's nominee was foolish, and to ratify that foolish decision is unacceptable.
Baloney, he will define his presidency. Conservatives define conservatism.
And now we have some people giving aid and comfort to Russia against the U.S. and our NATO allies in Kosovo.
I do not believe it matters one twit if I vote for or support the Keating Five Guy. If Hillary somehows manages to get the nomination, then my support of McCain might mean something. A thoroughly dislikable Washington insider Senator like McCain could have a chance against Hillary who is one in the same. But against Obama, he has no chance. Obama is younger and simply more charming than the old Rino relic of McCain. When Dole lost to Clinton, Clinton was ripe for defeat, but youth and likeability are factors that political ideologues that populate this forum seem to ignore. Since Bush and McCain stand firmly with Teddy Kennedy on amnesty, I see little difference between McCain and Bush. But with all Bush’s baggage, he would do better against Obama than McCain. He is younger, more likeable, and even after eight years he appears less of an insider than Puff Daschle’s vacation buddy.
Tough choices ahead.
On the other hand I believe McCain will likely kill off the conservative movement for 20 years and possible the Republican party for good.
If you want conservatives to become disengaged for a generation or two then McCain is your man.
I also think it very likely that a McCain Presidency will do far more longterm and permanent damage to the United States since he will be working with the Rinos and Dems full speed ahead to further his leftist one-world government agenda while any Democrat is likely to face an energized conservative base planning on fighting them every step of the way and flushing the Rinos out of the Republican party once and for all.
Not to mention I see no reason to reward the Republican Party for nominating the worse possible candidate they could considering their base.
And finally a McCain Presidency means legalized Mexican invaders - that won't ever be fixed and the damage is likely to be incalculable. Not to mention it pretty much will lock the Dems in power for decades due the Mexican "give me more of my benefits" votes.
Any Dem will have to fight to get any amnesty passed and the Republicans will be focused on two things - flushing out the Rinos that have infested the party and lead them down the path to utter defeat and limiting the damage done by the Dems.
I won't vote for McCain. Ever. Period.
Write in a real conservative, cast a vote that actually stands for something and let the chips fall where they may.
Obama v. Clinton v. McCain?
That’s like arguing which end of the shit sandwich is “the good end.”
I’ll write in someone else, thankyouverymuch.
Oh. I predict Obama, with McCain a 3 to 1 longshot. And I'll still be standing on my chair shouting I told you so - when he raises your taxes and lets Iran get nuclear weapons.
The problem with punishing the Republicans and McCain by ensuring a Democrat victory is that every bad consequence will be graven in stone forever. It’s not as if we’re going to have four years of the most extreme leftism and emerge the same as we were before. You cut off your nose to spite your face; your face gets properly spited, and afterwards there’s still a big gaping hole where your nose used to be.
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