Elder Ballard responds to evangelical criticism

Deseret Morning News ^ | Dec. 6, 2007 | Jennifer Dobner

[fallingwater]

SALT LAKE CITY — When it comes to the big theological questions about God, Mormons and evangelical Christians will have to agree to disagree, a Mormon church authority said Wednesday.

"They're locked into the Nicene Creed . . . We're locked into the restoration and the experiences of Joseph Smith," said Elder M. Russell Ballard, a senior leader of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "And that will undoubtedly be an issue until God himself comes."

[DelphiUser]

Great Post! We Christians need to stand together!

We do, for the most part.

For one, we've learned NOT to bite on the Armenian vs Calvinist bait that gets tossed out from time to time to divert attention away from them.

We've also learned that , "But YOUR churchs history has black spots, too!" is another way into the rabbit hole

Diversionary TarBabies abound in these threads.

Don't forget "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"

Elsie, this is the funniest post you have ever posted, no really!

In one post you state that Christians are unified and then list a few (there are more) breaks in "the" ranks. The only thing that unifies your group is attacking us.

Well, it is a tried and true tactic, when you have dissension in the ranks seek an outside enemy, Hitler was a master at it, so was Mussolini, the Soviets, even the Romans used this tactic.

Speaking of Diversionary Tar babies, attacking us to keep your own "group" in their ranks is a diversionary tactic.

[DelphiUser]

BBWayL8r Like Monday...

[Diamond]

... it’s entirely another to slam someone elses and how they were raised, with their traditions and beliefs

...There are some bad-minded people out there amongst the Evangelical movement. You small-minded souls amongst the Evangelicals are doing nothing for your image to the rest of the country.

You don't say. Perhaps it is just how we small-minded souls were raised, with our traditions and beliefs and what-not. You know, to slam other peoples' beliefs.

Cordially,

[DarthVader]

You Mormons must repent of your heresies or face the fate of false prophets articulated clearly in 2nd Peter 2.

[DarthVader]

We need stick to the basics and follow Paul’s exhoration and admonition to the Church at Corinth. (I Corinthians 1)

[Elsie]

Because they are mentioned in the Bible...

Where??

[Elsie]

Yup!

Too bad that Joe Smith didn’t get the memo.

[DelphiUser]

You Mormons must repent of your heresies or face the fate of false prophets articulated clearly in 2nd Peter 2.

You *Evangelicals* must repent of your heresies or face the fate of false prophets articulated clearly in 2nd Peter 2.

Yawn, replace any Religious descriptor between the Astrix's, and it works, IE. invective, not reason.

[DelphiUser]

I said I don't know, haven't looked into this, did you know that no evidence has ever been found of Chariots in Israel?

You said Uh...

Why do you think that there SHOULD be any??

I said Because they are mentioned in the Bible...

It's an example, just because something happened does not mean you can find evidence of it archaeologically, does not mean it didn't happen.

Another example, I love my wife, I doubt you will be able to prove that with Archeology 500 years from now.

You said Where??

Now you can't even do a search?

Look here, Sigh, why do I feel like I am teaching a remedial religion class?

OMM, Can you sub for me for a few days? I may not have time to teach while at a wedding reception.

[DarthVader]

You guys are what you are and no machination, nor insult, nor sarcasm, nor any tactic or weapon you use will dissuade me or other true Christians who are faithful to the Gospel of Jesus Christ from calling your Mormon cult what it truly is. God does not invite people to repent and obey the Holy Scriptures, He commands it.

[Quix]

Good work. Carry on . . . !

[Old Mountain man]

LC is not teachable. Let her look around for a few days.

[flaglady47]

“You don’t say. Perhaps it is just how we small-minded souls were raised, with our traditions and beliefs and what-not. You know, to slam other peoples’ beliefs.

Cordially,”

Well, you’re right. It must have been how you were raised. Cordially,

[restornu]

this is vile and you are one sick man!

In no way should such horors be used for your amusement!

Sadly no one see the depth you will go to malign another faith even use these pictures of these helpless souls for you fodder!

Boy this says alot about you Elsie...

[maui_hawaii]

Yes. Yes. and Yes.

[geopyg]

Here’s an excerpt from post 37 that might shed some light on the future for Catholics and Protestants:

Orson Pratt proclaimed: “Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the ‘whore of Babylon’ whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent” (The Seer, p. 255).

[maui_hawaii]

A "restored Christianity" (what LDS call themselves) is only necessary if there was a 100% "failed Christianity."

Wrong. If a lightbulb goes out in your house, do you have to replace the wiring as well?

[Elsie]

this is vile and you are one sick man!

In no way should such horors be used for your amusement!

Sadly no one see the depth you will go to malign another faith even use these pictures of these helpless souls for you fodder!

Boy this says alot about you Elsie...

Are YOU a HOLOCAUST denier?

Do YOU deny that these folks were descendants of MOSES?

Are YOU one who would HIDE 'offensive' history from people??

Boy! This says an AWFUL lot about YOU and YOUR church!

[restornu]

Still spinning Elsie!

You try to twist the thing here when it is you who used these poor souls to practiced your depraved fork tongue obsession!

The house of order in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is set upon the advise that Jetro who gave to Moses father in Law who held the Melchizedek Priesthood.

It was from Jethro that Moses received the Melchizedek Priesthood (D&C 84: 6-7). He also gave Moses some practical advice about administrative delegation of responsibility (Ex. 18: 13-27).

Everything The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does is according to will of Jesus Christ.

NOTHING is done in the Kingdom of Jesus Christ with out Jesus directive when it comes to things pertaing to the Lord’s Church.

Outside instigators have no say in the matter they can murmur all they want, but no explinatio is owe to you or any other viper who is no better than a money changer, of what goes on in the House of the Lord!

SECTION 84
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, September 22 and 23, 1832. HC 1: 286–295. During the month of September, elders had begun to return from their missions in the eastern states and to make reports of their labors. It was while they were together in this season of joy that the following communication was received. The Prophet designates it a revelation on priesthood.

1 A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.

2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.

3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.

4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.

5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

6 And the sons of Moses, according to the Holy Priesthood which he received under the hand of his father-in-law, Jethro;

7 And Jethro received it under the hand of Caleb;

Moses
Son of Amram (Ex. 6: 16, 18, 20; 1 Chr. 6: 1-3).

Family (1 Chr. 23: 13-17; 1 Chr. 26: 24-25).

Birth, exposure, and adoption (Ex. 2: 1-10; Acts 7: 20-21;
Heb. 11: 23).

Refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter (Heb. 11: 24).

Flight into Midian (Ex. 2: 10-20; Acts 7: 24-29).

Marriage, birth of Gershom (Ex. 2: 21-22; Acts 7: 29).

The bush, sent to Egypt (Ex. 3; Ps. 105: 26; Acts 7: 30-35).

The three signs (Ex. 4: 1-9, 21-23).

Aaron his spokesman (Ex. 4: 10-16).

Departs to Egypt (Ex. 4: 19-20).

Circumcision of Gershom (Ex. 4: 24-26).

Met by Aaron (Ex. 4: 27-28).

Assembles Israel (Ex. 4: 29-31).

Interview with Pharaoh (Ex. 5: 1-5).

Reproached by the people (Ex. 5: 20-21).

His complaint to God. (Ex. 5: 22-23).

Further promise and charge (Ex. 6: 1-9, 28-30; Ex. 7: 1-9).

The signs done (Ex. 7: 10-11).

The 10 plagues (Ex. 7: 19 - 11: 10; Ex. 12: 29-30).

Pursuit, and passage of the Red Sea (Ex. 14; Acts 7: 36).

Believed by the people (Ex. 14: 31; Josh. 4: 14).

His song (Ex. 15: 1-19).

The people murmur against, at Marah (Ex. 15: 24).

At Sin (Ex. 16: 2-3).

At Rephidim (Ex. 17: 2-3).

On the return of the spies (Num. 14: 2).

On the rebellion of Korah (Num. 16: 41).

At Kadesh (Num. 20: 2-3).

When compassing Edom (Num. 21: 5).

Sweetens the waters (Ex. 15: 25).

Brings water out of the rock, at Horeb (Ex. 17: 5-6).

At Kadesh (Num. 20: 7-11).

Brings quails at Sin (Ex. 16: 13).

At Kibroth-hattaavah (Num. 11: 31-34; Ps. 105: 40).

Manna (Ex. 16: 14-36; Num. 11: 6-9; Deut. 8: 3; Neh. 9: 15;

Ps. 78: 24; Ps. 105: 40; John 6: 31-32).

Holds the rod while Joshua and Amalek fight (Ex. 17: 9-12).

Goes up to God, the Law (Ex. 19; Heb. 12: 21).

\Returns, with the tables (Ex. 31: 18; Ex. 32: 7, 15-16).

God will make of him a nation (Ex. 32: 9-10; Num. 14: 12).

His intercessions (Ex. 32: 11-13, 30-34; Ex. 34: 8-9; Ps.
106: 23).

Also at Taberah (Num. 11: 2).

On the return of the spies (Num. 14: 13-19).

On the rebellion of Korah (Num. 16: 22).

Breaks the tables (Ex. 32: 19).

Destroys the calf (Ex. 32: 20).

Has the idolators slain (Ex. 32: 25-29).

A leader in God’s stead (Ex. 33: 1-3).

Speaks with God face to face in the tabernacle (Ex. 33: 7-11).

Sees God’s glory (Ex. 34: 28).

His face shines, the veil (Ex. 32: 29-35; 2 Cor. 3: 7, 13).

Rears the tabernacle (Ex. 40: 17-38).

Consecrates Aaron and his sons (Lev. 8).

The census (Num. 1).

Again, in the plains of Moab (Num. 26).

Sends the spies (Num. 13).

Rebellion of Korah (Num. 16; Ps. 106: 16).

Sends to Edom (Num. 20: 14).

The brazen serpent (Num. 21: 8-9; John 3: 14).

Song at the well (Num. 21: 17-18).

Views the land (Num. 27: 12-14; Deut. 34: 1-4).

Appoints Joshua (Num. 27: 15-23).

Settles the 2 1/2 tribes (Num. 32).

“A prophet like unto him” (Deut. 18: 15-19; Acts 3: 22;
Acts 7: 37; JS-H 1: 40).

Ebal and Gerizim (Deut. 27; 28).

Exhortations (Deut. 29 - 31).

The elders gathered (Deut. 31: 28).

His song (Deut. 32).

Blesses the 12 tribes (Deut. 33).

His death (Deut. 34: 1-8).

His greatness (Deut. 34: 10-12).

His meekness (Num. 12: 3).

His faithfulness (Num. 12: 7; Heb. 3: 2,5).
As was the case with many of the ancient prophets, Moses’ ministry extended beyond the limits of his own mortal lifetime.

In company with Elijah, he came to the Mount of Transfiguration and bestowed keys of the priesthood upon Peter, James, and John (Matt. 17: 3-4; Mark 9: 4-9; Luke 9: 30; D&C 63: 21; HC 3: 387). From this event, which occurred before the resurrection of Jesus, we understand that Moses was a translated being, and had not died as reported in Deut. 34 (Alma 45: 19).

It was necessary that he be translated, in order to have a body of flesh and bones at the time of the transfiguration, since the resurrection had not yet taken place. Had he been a spirit only, he could not have performed the work on the mount of giving the keys to the mortal Peter, James, and John (cf. D&C 129).

Moses came again to the earth on April 3, 1836, to the temple in Kirtland, Ohio, and conferred the keys of the gathering of Israel upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery (D&C 110), so that the keys of authority would once more be operative among men on the earth.

Latter-day revelation speaks much concerning Moses. He is mentioned frequently in the Book of Mormon, and from the D&C we learn concerning his ministry (D&C 84: 20-26), and that he received the priesthood from his father-in-law, Jethro (D&C 84: 6).

The Lord has also given us the record of several visions of Moses, which greatly enlarges our knowledge of him (Moses 1). The book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price also enriches our appreciation of its author.

Latter-day revelation concerning Moses confirms the biblical account of his greatness, his divine calling, and the events of his ministry, and reaffirms that he was the author of the five books that bear his name (1 Ne. 5: 11; Moses 1: 40-41).

He is one of the greatest of men. For other references see Ps. 103: 7; Isa. 63: 12; Jer. 15: 1; Mal. 4: 4; Matt. 23: 2; Luke 16: 29, 31; John 1: 17; John 5: 46; Acts 7: 20-44; 1 Cor. 10: 2; 2 Tim. 3: 8; Heb. 11: 23-29; Jude 1: 9; Rev. 15: 3; 1 Ne. 4: 2; 1 Ne. 17: 23-30, 42; D&C 8: 3; JS-M 1: 55.

[Colofornian]

Me: "restored Christianity" (what LDS call themselves) is only necessary if there was a 100% "failed Christianity."

You: Wrong. If a lightbulb goes out in your house, do you have to replace the wiring as well?

So with your analogy, you take something absolutely monumental—like Christianity as a movement over 2,000 years—and you reduce it down to one mere light bulb? (Come on, you can do better than that).

Even with your analogy at that microcosmic level (not that light bulbs are “microcosmic,” but contrasting the Christian movement as a “light bulb” is in reality “microcosmic” in terms of trying to define its power in such a way), just makes my point. My point is that “restored Christianity” implies “failed Christianity.” And if the light bulb went out—a light bulb that Jesus intended never to go out (“the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”—Matt. 16:18)…then guess what? Yes, indeed, that light bulb “failed” on its mission.

As for your analogy, if you’re going to pick something considerably < (the symbol for "less than") the actual reality, why not pick something reflecting the dynamic movement of the movement?

Example: the front lights of a vehicle. Then your question of If a lightbulb goes out in your house, do you have to replace the wiring as well? becomes If your front lines both go out in your car, do you have replace the wiring as well?

Answer? You’re darn right you do!!!…after you’ve been driving at dark…and you crash…because either another vehicle didn’t see you…or you had no visible light to navigate the twists & turns of the roads of life…in fact, you not only had to replace the wiring, but the entire vehicle’s been assigned to the scrap yard of the “First Vision”…why you’re nothing but a corroded piece of “corrupted” metal…why no driver should become en"join"ed to your steering wheel…your entire design is now an “abomination in the sight of Detroit” [see LDS “scripture”—Pearl of Great Price—Joseph Smith – History , vv. 18-20 for Smith’s use of words like “corrupt,” “wrong,” “abomination,” “not to join,” etc. in his description of all “Christian sects”]

house (analogy)

A better analogy to what the LDS church has tried to do is to show up @ the household of Christianity in 1820 & say: “You’ve failed. We’re here to take over the one true household of faith. You’ve lost the authority & right to occupy this house.” Look at what’s happened ever since Joseph Smith started a religious war by his attempted eviction battle by one lacking authority (Smith serves a god who has no ultimate authority; he serves a god who was once a man)…all he’s done is to sow confusion, conflict, steal 9 to 11 wives of women already married, manipulate & intimidate people via “revelations” still recorded in the D&C to this day, dragging followers who he himself called “wicked” (D&C 98:19-20); “terrible” (D&C 45:70) & “abominable” (D&C 54:20) from city to city.