Elder Ballard responds to evangelical criticism

Deseret Morning News ^ | Dec. 6, 2007 | Jennifer Dobner

[fallingwater]

SALT LAKE CITY — When it comes to the big theological questions about God, Mormons and evangelical Christians will have to agree to disagree, a Mormon church authority said Wednesday.

"They're locked into the Nicene Creed . . . We're locked into the restoration and the experiences of Joseph Smith," said Elder M. Russell Ballard, a senior leader of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "And that will undoubtedly be an issue until God himself comes."

[Elsie]

Yeah, and if you came to my house saying some of the stuff you say, you had better pack an army.

So much for 'carrying a big stick'!

[Elsie]

If I knew where you lived, I would have two or three teams knocking on your door!

POTENTIAL HARRASSMENT ALERT!

[Elsie]

I also have a personal testimony of the power of the Priesthood.

OOooooH!

Let's hear it!

[Elsie]

Still lots of bloviating but no evidence....

There IS a lot of that going on; isn't there!

[Elsie]

...your ally Elsie’s crap.

Dang!

All I do is post some more LDS organizational writings, and it gets called CRAP!

[Elsie]

More bloviating and avoiding the question. Is that all you can do?

You'll have to be nicer to folks if you EVER expect to graduate from kindergarten.

[DarthVader]

To reinforce what is being said by Christians on this thread. Here is what Peter prophesied about “restored Christianity” and other movements like them.

2 Peter 2

False Prophets and Their Punishment

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive opinions. They will even deny the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Even so, many will follow their licentious ways, and because of these teachers* the way of truth will be maligned. 3And in their greed they will exploit you with deceptive words. Their condemnation, pronounced against them long ago, has not been idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell* and committed them to chains* of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgement; 5and if he did not spare the ancient world, even though he saved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood on a world of the ungodly; 6and if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction* and made them an example of what is coming to the ungodly;* 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man greatly distressed by the licentiousness of the lawless 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by their lawless deeds that he saw and heard), 9then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgement 10—especially those who indulge their flesh in depraved lust, and who despise authority.

Bold and wilful, they are not afraid to slander the glorious ones,* 11whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not bring against them a slanderous judgement from the Lord.* 12These people, however, are like irrational animals, mere creatures of instinct, born to be caught and killed. They slander what they do not understand, and when those creatures are destroyed,* they also will be destroyed, 13suffering* the penalty for doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, revelling in their dissipation* while they feast with you. 14They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! 15They have left the straight road and have gone astray, following the road of Balaam son of Bosor,* who loved the wages of doing wrong, 16but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm; for them the deepest darkness has been reserved. 18For they speak bombastic nonsense, and with licentious desires of the flesh they entice people who have just* escaped from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for people are slaves to whatever masters them. 20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment that was passed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb,
‘The dog turns back to its own vomit’,
and,‘The sow is washed only to wallow in the mud.’

[Elsie]

I won't give you the address or website - because of your earlier statement I think you might be a bit of a dangerous person.

No!!

I am shocked!

TRULY shocked!!

[Elsie]

---

 

It appears you've been a bit, shall we say, selective in what you've posted.

 

         

Dr. Ainsworth with artifacts from Mesoameria. What's that writing? The professionals have yet to identify i1

[Elsie]

 

 

 

Statement by BYU Anthropologist

"Book of Mormon cities have been found, they are well known, and their artifacts grace the finest museums. They are merely masked by archaeological labels such as "Maya," "Olmec," and so on. The problem, then, is not that Book of Mormon artifacts have not been found, only that they have not been recognized for what they are. Again, if we stumbled onto Zarahemla, how would we know? The difficulty is not with evidence but with epistemology."    John E. Clark, Professor of anthropology, BYU, Director of NWAF, Chiapas, Mexico. Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, Vol 14, No. 2, 2005 p.42 The entire article is titled "Archeology, Relics, and Book of Mormon Belief" published by FARMS 2005.

 

 

Well EXCUSE me!

 

Boo Hoo!

[Elsie]

If anyone is interested in what all the fuss is about, here is a link to Get a free Book of Mormon

[Elsie]

 

 Here is what Peter prophesied about “restored Christianity” and other movements like them.

 

For ANYTHING to trump the existing bible we have, it HAS to pass THIS test:

 

 

Galatians 1:7-10
 7.  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert (restore?) the gospel of Christ.
 8.  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 9.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

 

2 Corinthians 11:14-15
 14.  And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
 15.  It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19
  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”  

 

If one believes the Bible is correct, then, by that Standard, Mormonism fails the test.

 

 

 

 

If, however, you are convinced that the Bible is either in error, been corrupted or mis-interpreted, then you are free to believe whatever you wish.

 

Be warned though, that this same Bible indicates that no matter how fervently you believe in Something; that does not make it True.

 

 

 

[Elsie]

The professionals have yet to identify i1...

The professionals have yet to identify IT!

[DarthVader]

Great Post! We Christians need to stand together!

[Old Mountain man]

ROFLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Elsie]

Great Post! We Christians need to stand together!

We do, for the most part.

For one, we've learned NOT to bite on the Armenian vs Calvinist bait that gets tossed out from time to time to divert attention away from them.

We've also learned that , "But YOUR churchs history has black spots, too!" is another way into the rabbit hole

Diversionary TarBabies abound in these threads.

[DelphiUser]

With the best enhancements I can make on my machine, it appears the markings on the ‘jerry3.jpg’ have some resemblance to Hebrew in the uppermost portion of the slab. What is the massive thing purported to be, that you would post it as ‘evidence’? The images in ‘jerry4.jpg’ have no similarity to Hebrew writing.

I was asked to show some pictures of artifacts believed to be from the Book of Mormon cities, I did, I can personally neither read Hebrew, nor Egyptian. I am not an expert. the man standing next tot he slab is supposed to be. I do know this, but only from hearsay, BYU sends people on archaeological expeditions to South America "all the time" they are told where to go, and what they are looking for, usually they find "it" whatever "it" is. The "Stuff" is cataloged, photographed, and usually shipped back to BYU for further analysis.

BYU has exhibits most of the time in the Harris Fine Arts Center (HFAC) on campus. Most people never go to them, I had to for an art class.

My point is simple, there is evidence, whether or not it is accurately interpreted is not for me, a layman, to say, but there is evidence that would have to be debated by people who know about such things, so the statement that there is no archaeological evidence is False. Feel free to debate with someone who can debate on the subject the merits of saying this stuff is not from the Book of Mormon, however, this hypothetical person who can debate that with you is not me.

Thanks for the Ping MHG.

[DelphiUser]

Why do you think that there SHOULD be any??

Because they are mentioned in the Bible...

It's an example, just because something happened does not mean you can find evidence of it archeologically, does not mean it didn't happen.

Another example, I love my wife, I doubt you will be able to prove that with Archeology 500 years from now.

[DelphiUser]

It appears you've been a bit, shall we say, selective in what you've posted.

I was asked to post some artifacts that were supposed to be from the Cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon. I did that. If I was asked to post images of the Temple, I might comply and do that. I am not going to feel bad about posting what I was asked to post, and I can get more. Apparently, you can Goggle, so have fun looking stuff up. I am busy getting ready to go to a wedding reception, so don't expect lengthy dialog with me today. I may not post again until Monday, play nice with the other kids.

[DelphiUser]

Great Post! We Christians need to stand together!

Great! Where are we going to stand? Will it be crowded?