Elder Ballard responds to evangelical criticism

Deseret Morning News ^ | Dec. 6, 2007 | Jennifer Dobner

[fallingwater]

SALT LAKE CITY — When it comes to the big theological questions about God, Mormons and evangelical Christians will have to agree to disagree, a Mormon church authority said Wednesday.

"They're locked into the Nicene Creed . . . We're locked into the restoration and the experiences of Joseph Smith," said Elder M. Russell Ballard, a senior leader of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "And that will undoubtedly be an issue until God himself comes."

[Old Mountain man]

If I knew where you lived, I would have two or three teams knocking on your door!

;)

[Colofornian]

If I knew where you lived, I would have two or three teams knocking on your door! ;)

OMM, if you weren't on occasion so crankety & onery toward some folks (usually more toward other posters than myself), I think I could get to like your under-the-surface sweet disposition. (At least you have my spiritual welfare at heart) :)

[Old Mountain man]

Please bear in mind that I bear nobody any real personal animosity, but I will not sit idly by and allow people to crap all over that which I hold sacred. I do have a personal testimony of Jesus Christ. I also have a personal testimony of the power of the Priesthood.

I also have a personal testimony of the falsity of baptist preachers and their churches.

[Old Mountain man]

Still lots of bloviating but no evidence, unless you count your ally Elsie’s crap. If that’s the best you can do, well, stop demanding archeological evidence.

[MHGinTN]

Nice try at diversion, changing the subject. How about events that your peepstone prophet claimed occurred at a known 'hill' in upstate New York and for which there is zero evidence even though hundreds of thousands were claimed to have died in a great battle there ... you know, the place where your peepstone liar claimed to have found 'golden plates' engraved with 'reformed egyptian' but he 'translated' into King James English with passages copied from sources such as Shakespeare, the New Testament, and the Old Testament?

Even if zero archaeological material is ever produced proving Moses--like an Egyptian stela with his name from the time of living in Pharoah's court-- your religion claims things that ought be easily proven if true, the 'hill' is still there, though the fairy plates and special peepstone translaters are gone. All of the Ameircas are being examined archaeologically. Still crickets, OMm.

[Old Mountain man]

Still the bloviating preacher who can’t or won’t answer a question about his own beliefs. More mainstream ducking and dodging. You are quite good at it.

Why can’t you answer a quite simple question? Are you afraid of the answer?

[MHGinTN]

And I have witnessed the falsity of Mormon priesthood, and have seen lived out the hypocrisy of Mormonism claims. That isn’t the point though, now is it. We cannot test whatever emotional ‘testimony’ you have as to the supposed truth of the BM ... some of it’s true because there are whole sections from the Bible transposed into it. We’re discussing archaeological evidence.

[MHGinTN]

What is this ‘simple question’ from your simple mind?... BTW, I’m not a preacher nor have I ever claimed such.

[SkyPilot]

Sorry I am late getting back to you Old Mountain Man. A woman I work with needs some help with a personal issues, and I don't have much time for Freeping.

Still, I wanted to answer you.

As you know from the Bible, Moses'; grave is hidden by God Himself.

And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

Deuteronomy 34:6

However, there is an incredible amount of archaeological evidence for Moses, the Exodus, and the period of Biblical history.

Sooo....I really don't know if this does any good at all in the debate. Further, I cannot comprehend why you demanded evidence of Moses's existence - the Mormon's claim to believe in him also - other than you decided to swing a rhetorical angry sword at any Biblical figure in order to show your anger at the fact that Joseph Smith claims are ridiculous by comparison.

But, here are some more links you won't read - but perhaps others who are following these threads will.

BIBLE ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE

MORMON ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE

Well - the link for the above doesn't work, because there isn't any.

Here is a link, however, that does work:

Thanks.

[Old Mountain man]

More bloviating and avoiding the question. Is that all you can do?

[Old Mountain man]

So, there is really no evidence other than the Scriptures that Moses lived, right?

[SkyPilot]

1. We have found many "old" cities here,especially in South america (south of the "narrow neck of land where most of the Book of Mormon takes place.) Have they been identified as BOM cities, yes by some IMHO overzealous Mormons, I think they are just guessing, again, that's my opinion without looking at the specific evidence.

Wow. That was a very honest answer, and it actually hurts the side of Mormonism. If you were not so hard hearted, your own answer would tell you "Houston, we have a problem."

2. Un translatable inscriptions abound, so? Recently the names of Nephi and Alma were found in the dead sea scrolls, and some inscriptions have been found in the Americas in proto Hebrew.

It is not just those names being found that proves your theology! My goodness - Joseph Smith "borrowed" from everything under the sun - including the old and new Testaments of the Bible. The fact remains, for thousands of years critics have tried to discredit the Bible - it remains irrefutable with no contradictions. The Mormons books have been edited over the years to cover up its mistakes. I dare you to ask me for specific examples.

3. This is not true, some inscriptions have been found on cliffs and in caves.

Where - and when were these carved? I know some Jewish friends from New York City that carved their names into a highway underpass. Does that pass your muster?

4. I don't know, ahven't looked into this, did you know that no evidence has ever been found of Chariots in Israel? This in no way invalidates the Bible in my view.

You totally cannot answer the original charge then:

"No genuine inscriptions have been found in America in Egyptian or anything similar to Egyptian, which could correspond to Joseph Smith's "reformed Egyptian."

You utterly fail on this one.

5. If you read the Book of Mormon and understand that the Plates were one set handed down from one prophet to another, you would not expect to see "Copies". To Mormons this is a silly complaint by someone who has not read a book critiquing.

So Josh McDowell was correct again:

"No ancient copies of Book of Mormon scriptures have been found."

6. There have been many inscriptions in South America that can be interpreted as " Christian".?

Where?

7. You seem to be focusing on The United States as "America when most of the Book of Mormon probably happened in South America?

So, if SOUTH AMERICA is where you are reaching for evidence, why did does Mormon history and teaching all point to North America? Or is it you are trying to bring in another American continent to muddy the waters?

8. The church has many artifacts in it's archives, they have displays from time to time, no one outside the church seems interested.

I am interested! The whole world is. Can you give us links or pictures to these ancient artifacts?

9. Traditional interpretations on something new? Yeah, i'd hope we'd retreat from that, I also retreat from traditional interpretations of modern speech and American interpretation of some "English" speech as spoken by the British.

What a cop out!

Josh McDowell's statement was:

Rather than finding supportive evidence, Mormon scholars have been forced to retreat from traditional interpretations of Book of Mormon statements.

Your answer affirms everything he said.

And now, I can say "There - I have responded to all your non-answers."

The fact is - Mormonism is now in the news. It is getting a lot of scrutiny and attention. Being built on a house of theological sand, this cannot be a good thing for you.

It reminds me of the "RatherGate" scandal - and how CBS was exposed. Withing 8 hours of the airing of that show, the bloggers and mostly the members here on FR could smell a rat.

Mitt Romney may have done a lot of souls a service by running.

By exposing the lie of Mormonism, many souls that would have fallen into your trap may be saved.

[Old Mountain man]

Cute. Now, state your church and I shall happily go on the internet and post all the garbage and lies I can find about it just like you do. I bet I can find more about yours than you can find about mine!

[SkyPilot]

Cute. Now, state your church and I shall happily go on the internet and post all the garbage and lies I can find about it just like you do. I bet I can find more about yours than you can find about mine!

Sure.

I am a Biblical Christian.

[Old Mountain man]

And what church do you attend?

[SkyPilot]

A biblical Christian church.

It is nondenominational actually.

I won't give you the address or website - because of your earlier statement I think you might be a bit of a dangerous person.

I have been disturbed by some of your posts lately. You seem to have great animosity towards Baptist.

On another post, you made an implicit threat saying that if anyone came near you, they would need "an army" or something like that to fight you off and you dared them to approach you.

To be honest, that sounds a bit "off."

In fact, all of your posts seem very hostile - except towards those in your Mormon faith.

[FastCoyote]

“Let us know when you graduate from kindergarten.”

That sounds remarkably like the taunt that Huckabee used against Mitt Romney. Perhaps you are a Baptist Preacher in disguise?

[DelphiUser]

1.

Wow. That was a very honest answer, and it actually hurts the side of Mormonism. If you were not so hard hearted, your own answer would tell you "Houston, we have a problem."

I am always Honest in my answers, lying would be an illogical and fruitless thing to do.
I am not hard hearted, I listen to God all the time, freepers, less often.
From a logical stand point a belief in Jesus Christ is just silly, but once the spirit has testified to you that he is real, then there is no question the same is true writh the Book of Maroon, I have had a witness from God, Would you listen to some guy in his pajamas telling you you are wrong after that?.

It is not just those names being found that proves your theology! My goodness -

2.

Joseph Smith "borrowed" from everything under the sun - including the old and new Testaments of the Bible.

Many of the Books of the Bible repeat each other, this seems to cause you no problem, but if God repeats himself to Joseph or the Laminites, it's plagerisem?

The fact remains, for thousands of years critics have tried to discredit the Bible - it remains irrefutable with no contradictions.

Please understand that I believe the Bible to be scripture, but exactly how did Judas die (It's a famous contradiction in the Bible...)

The Mormons books have been edited over the years to cover up its mistakes.

More than the addition of Verses, punctuation and the clarification of words no longer in use? Oh wait, that was the Bible...

I dare you to ask me for specific examples.

LOL! Knock yourself out, I have seen the "list", and I was not impressed. Just for your amusement Have There Been Thousands of Changes in the Book of Mormon? 3.

Where - and when were these carved? I know some Jewish friends from New York City that carved their names into a highway under pass. Does that pass your muster?

Your treatment does not encourage a sincere answer. so, sure, why not?

4.

You totally cannot answer the original charge then:

Didn't try, didn't think it relevant, I never saw the original manuscripts for the Bible in Aramyic either, guess I'll have to throw it out too...

You utterly fail on this one.

Gosh!, I guess I'll just have to go home and CRY FOR NOT having done research on something I find irrelevant.

5.

So Josh McDowell was correct again:

Since the Book of Mormon said there wouldn't be "other manuscripts" I guess he was right since he agreed with the Book of Mormon.

there was a saying about a stopped clock...

6.

Where?

In south America, I am not going to argue them with you, they Could be interpreted as Christian, and have been by Non Mormons who drew them to our attention Your interpretation will undoubtedly be some thing else, judging by your posts...

7.

So, if SOUTH AMERICA is where you are reaching for evidence, why did does Mormon history and teaching all point to North America? Or is it you are trying to bring in another American continent to muddy the waters?

It wold be truly amazing if the BOM took dividend up the Content the exact same way we don't you think... Sheesh!

8.

I am interested! The whole world is. Can you give us links or pictures to these ancient artifacts?

Here are a couple of photos of an archaeologist with some finds...

You might also want to read Mormon Answers: Questions About Book of Mormon Evidence 9.

What a cop out!

You want to interpret things according to YOUR tradition and then say it doesn't meet YOUR criteria. Who are YOU anyway? I'd much rather have God's opinion than yours, oh wait, I do!

Your answer affirms everything he said.

Feel free to think that...

The fact is - Mormonism is now in the news. It is getting a lot of scrutiny and attention. Being built on a house of theological sand, this cannot be a good thing for you.

Well, we'll have to see how our numbers jump and see if it was a good or bad thing.

It reminds me of the "RatherGate" scandal - and how CBS was exposed. Withing 8 hours of the airing of that show, the bloggers and mostly the members here on FR could smell a rat.

The same is true in FR, many smell a rat in these attack posts.

Mitt Romney may have done a lot of souls a service by running.

Yes, he may have...

By exposing the lie of Mormonism, many souls that would have fallen into your trap may be saved.

So, have you actually read the Book of Mormon, and prayed about it?

If anyone is interested in what all the fuss is about, here is a link to Get a free Book of Mormon

Well, I got a long day tomorrow, and then a wedding takes me away, be back when I can...

[MHGinTN]

With the best enhancements I can make on my machine, it appears the markings on the ‘jerry3.jpg’ have some resemblance to Hebrew in the uppermost portion of the slab. What is the massive thing purported to be, that you would post it as ‘evidence’? The images in ‘jerry4.jpg’ have no similarity to Hebrew writing.

[Elsie]

I don't know, ahven't looked into this, did you know that no evidence has ever been found of Chariots in Israel?

Uh...

Why do you think that there SHOULD be any??