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Republican Presidential Candidate Debate #10 – St. Petersburg 11/28/07 - Official Discussion Thread

Posted on 11/28/2007 3:59:54 PM PST by CounterCounterCulture

Republican Presidential Candidate Debate #10 – St. Petersburg, Florida 11/28/07 - Official Discussion Thread

CNN will hold this debate, hosted by Anderson Cooper, with submitted questions in video form via YouTube.
8pm ET/5pm PT

Hosted by Anderson Cooper

Candidates participating:



TOPICS: Breaking News; Constitution/Conservatism; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: andersoncooper; cnn; debate; debate2007; duncanhunter; elections2008; florida; fredthompson; giuliani; gopdebate; gopdebates; huckabee; hunter; johnmccain; mccain; mikehuckabee; mittromney; paul; presidentialdebate; republican; republicandebate; romney; ronpaul; rudygiuliani; stpetersburg; tancredo; thompson; tomtancredo; youtube
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To: advance_copy

Obviously a John Edwards plant.


2,521 posted on 11/28/2007 9:21:23 PM PST by Waryone (Constantly amazed by society's downhill slide.)
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To: Lexinom

THANK YOU !!


2,522 posted on 11/28/2007 9:21:42 PM PST by 4integrity
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To: Gondring; flaglady47

Well you can part with flaglady47 over this, but I will part with you as a fellow libertarian over the Mormon issue.

You’re right that many members of the Church of LDS don’t know what Joseph Smith thought, wrote or said. I don’t care. I know a lot of Mormons. Including the family of 10 who are our next door neighbors. Most wonderful people you could ever meet. They are so nice that I have to wonder if they are for real. Who cares if Joseph Smith was ________ (fill in the blank)

If every religion on the planet Earth was about family, having lots of children, loving them, raising them to be ridiculously nice to everyone and being great upstanding peaceful citizens then the world would be a better place.

I actually haven’t given Mitt any serious thought as POTUS for much different reasons.


2,523 posted on 11/28/2007 9:22:41 PM PST by Eric Blair 2084 (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms shouldn't be a federal agency...it should be a convenience store.)
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To: All

Yep, he’s a winner:

KNOW THE OPPOSITION
Keith H. Kerr
Brigadier General, CSMR (Ret.)

A candidate for political office knows that to win, he or she must know the opposition, their platform, and as much other information about the opponent as possible. A beginning student in a debating learns that he or she must know both sides of the issue. Those of us who served in military intelligence heeded the advice of the Sun Tzu, the ancient Chinese general, who said you must know your enemy.

Those of us working to repeal Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell (DADT) believe that gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (GLBT) persons deserve full access to American society. That includes the right to serve in uniform. Each of us know those who must hide their inmost feelings and who worry each day if their career will be cut short by a careless remark, an intercepted letter, or a suspicious co-worker. But if we are to be successful in lifting the ban, do we really know the opposition? I think we do not.

The Administration’s intransigence and Congressional indifference frustrate our efforts. But the inconvenient truth is that religious conservatives are the best-organized and the best-financed opposition to the repeal of DADT today. They were instrumental in subverting the promise of newly-elected President Clinton to lift the ban in 1993. Their lobbying efforts on Capitol Hill and their networking inside the Pentagon continue today.

Why did it happen? And what is the opposition today?

The religious conservatives rise to a policy-making role and a potent voice in national affairs began in the 1960’s and culminated in the late 1990’s. The effort gathered momentum as they realized many values and attitudes of the mid-20th Century had slipped away, and they were determined to bring them back. One of those attitudes, of course, was the prejudice and persecution directed toward GLBT persons. From the 1960’s on, pluralism and secularism had become dominant on the American political landscape. Pluralism allowed a variety of views and tolerance for different attitudes, and secularism supported national policies that did not necessarily reflect sectarian doctrine. Pluralism and secularism were viewed by religious conservatives as a monstrous threat to their interpretation of the Bible. They became activists to advance sectarian ideals. The resulting conflict has also been called the Culture Wars.

The best known groups are James Dobson’s Focus on the Family, the Rev. Lou Sheldon’s Traditional Values Coalition, and the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE). Views of other prominent leaders often appear in the media: Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and Peter Sprigg of the Family Research Council. They are all opposed to increased participation in American society by GLBT persons, which they refer to as “the homosexual agenda.”

Elaine Donnelly heads The Center for Military Readiness (CMR) and advocates replacing DADT with a policy of absolute prohibition. Ms. Donnelly’s group is hardly a think tank or a group studying a broad and in-depth array of defense issues, and styles itself as dealing with personnel issues. The CMR confines itself to issues of sexuality and is a thinly-veiled front for religious conservatives opposed to GLBT persons.

Two new books deal with the influence of the religious right on American policies. Ray Suarez of “The News Hour with James Lehrer” has written The Holy Votes. Mel White, bestselling author of Stranger at the Gate: To Be Gay and Christian in America, and cofounder and president of Soulforce, Inc., is out with a new book: Religion Gone Bad—The Hidden Dangers of the Christian Right. Suarez discusses the recent decline of the plural and secular influence in government as the result of religious fundamentalism. Mel White points out how conservatives have been successful in collapsing the separation of church and state in an effort to create a theocracy in which public policy is molded to reflect their interpretation of Holy Scripture.

Suarez also comments that religious conservatives arrive in politics with a binary set of values on national issues. Their views are not subject to change, either through discussion, new scientific evidence, or reason. Issues are either black or white and based on their rigid interpretation of the Bible.

Newsweek recently reported White House staffers had accepted $135,000 in free trips since November 2004, generally for meetings and conventions. Among those picking up the tab were Focus on the Family and the Southern Baptist Convention.

While the religious right was becoming more prominent in American politics, changes were taking place in the armed forces. After the Vietnam War, the makeup of the military chaplaincies began to change. For decades, chaplains from mainstream denominations had been predominant. These chaplains focused on pastoral counseling and placed minimum emphasis on sectarian or doctrinal views. The long Vietnam War ushered in new developments when clergy and lay leadership of mainline churches criticized the war. In contrast, religious conservatives believed the threat posed by Communism in Southeast Asia justified a war, and they never wavered in their support for the government, the armed forces, or intervention in Southeast Asia.

The attitude found a sympathetic audience in the defense establishment. By the mid 1970’s, prayer breakfasts and luncheons, and Bible studies groups had become routine at the Pentagon. A new and positive relationship emerged between the conservative chaplains and Defense Department officials and many high ranking officers. A number of them became “born again” Christians. The offensive continued at West Point, Annapolis, and the Army’s Command and General Staff College. More recently, in 2005, a scandal erupted at the Air Force Academy when one chaplain accused peers of aggressively promoting conservative religious views, proselytizing cadets, and exerting command pressure on non-evangelicals. Graduates and their parents testified in support of the charges, and the Pentagon dispatched a task force to study the situation and propose remedial steps.

When the 1993 debate about lifting the ban on homosexuals in the uniformed services reached Congress, Colin Powell was serving as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. In his remarks, General Powell upheld the plural and secular view of national policy, namely the strict separation of church and state.

A question to Powell at the Naval Academy validated his position. A midshipman asked what those who believed that homosexuality is immoral should do if the ban was lifted. Powell responded by saying they had the option to resign, upholding the secular approach to politics. He said, “We, as professional members of the military, must conform to the policy. The debate will be over at that point.”

Despite this statement, General Powell and his colleagues were opposed to allowing GLBT personnel to serve on other grounds. They argued against lifting the ban saying it would be detrimental to good order, discipline, and unit cohesion, would undermine morale and recruiting, and would increase the spread of AIDS among military personnel. Later, the general reacted stiffly and with disbelief when asked if he could see a relationship between the discrimination directed toward African-Americans and that toward homosexuals.

The fundamentalists who had risen to prominence in the military chaplaincies now added their position in the debate. In stark contrast to Powell’s secular view, Brigadier General James M. Hutchens, a retired chaplain, testified to the House Armed Services Committee. He quoted extensively from the Koran and Torah. Then he invoked the New Testament and condemned homosexuality by saying:

1. The wrath of God is being revealed against it.

2. It is based on a refusal to honor God

3. It is based on ingratitude toward God.

4. It is based on a willful choice.

5. God has lifted his restraining hand.

6. What starts as a choice becomes all-consuming…

7. Those who practice it know full well God’s decree…

8. Condoning homosexuality is wrong, and is a further step away from God.

Other chaplains spoke and presented their views to both the House and Senate committees. Video clips of gay pride parades were shown in a biased effort to highlight the extreme revelers and focus on excesses. The implied argument was that these GLB people would contaminate our service members and denigrate the uniform with their conduct. Virtually no testimony was allowed supporting the great contributions to national defense by patriotic GLBT Americans over many decades. Unfortunately, these conservative chaplains still remain in great numbers in our military services. Today they advocate even more sectarian emphasis in prayers, invocations and benedictions.

In contrast to the religious conservatives, the inclusive churches, synagogues, and mosques never organized effectively to advocate acceptance of GLBT people in the military or in society at large. Additionally, their interpretations of the Bible on the issue of homosexuality were never widely disseminated to the American public. Although individual church spokesmen often spoke up for GLBT persons and welcomed them, no cross-denomination group emerged until very recently. Soulforce began in 1999 when 200 GLBT activists descended on the Rev. Jerry Falwell’s Thomas Road Baptist Church to protest their anti-gay policies. Soulforce advocates “freedom for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people from religious and political oppression through non-violent resistance.”

Where do these facts lead those of us who support the right of GLBT persons to serve openly in the armed forces? The inconvenient truth is the religious right remains the best-organized and financed obstacle to lifting the ban on GLBT persons. There is no doubt that the Judeo-Christian ethic has been the moral foundation of American government. Our laws and our culture are based on religious and philosophical values like: “Thou shalt not bear false witness;” or “Thou shalt not kill,” or “All men are created equal.” Today, these moral values are accepted and embraced in our culture. But when one religious movement has imposed its particular sectarian views on our society, then it is time to speak out and work for change.

In the last three years, I have been less than successful in convincing my colleagues that the religious right is the major obstacle to eliminating DADT. To many, that group seems insignificant and irrelevant in the context of daily political issues and world events.

Jim Maloney asked that I suggest a course of action to achieve our goal. After considering this issue for three years, I have concluded that two events are essential to lifting the ban on GLBT people in the military. We must advocate and support:

1. A return by our national leadership to the secular and plural doctrine of government;

2. The continuing effort to show the American people that the inclusion of GLBT persons in the armed forces of the United States promotes defense readiness and equality for all.

Keith H. Kerr
Brigadier General, CSMR (Ret.)

OTHER THOUGHTS: Whenever ‘A’ attempts by law to impose moral standards on ‘B,’ ‘A’ is most likely a scoundrel.” H. L. Menken

http://www.thegaymilitarytimes.com/060926Kerr.html


2,524 posted on 11/28/2007 9:23:40 PM PST by AliVeritas (All photoshops stolen from Are We Lumberjacks and EU Referendum. Go visit them.)
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To: RatsDawg
I actually agreed with Leeann, but not just because of lead paranoia.

That said, esp. with Kerr, this is hugh and series. If it gets any exposure at all, it will only add to the suspicions already held by Democrats and help Obama in Iowa.

2,525 posted on 11/28/2007 9:23:45 PM PST by Lexinom (Build the fence and call China to account. GoHunter08.com)
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To: jan in Colorado; PetroniusMaximus; flaglady47
It wasn't a "mistake"...he broke the law!

The question isn't whether it was breaking the law or not...the question was, was the law a good one? I.e., do you believe it?

And then the matter of the punishment... stoning the offender. Remember, they said they didn't know what to do with him and the Lord commanded he be killed.

But if you go to the preceding verses (Numbers 15:24-32, the Lord has already stated the punishments for violating one of His laws, and stoning isn't the answer (it was "exile" or "bull/grain/wine/goat-offering/sacrifice" for intentional or unintentional violations, respectively).

Hey, at least they ENFORCED the law!

Yep...as barbarically then as it is now in the Middle East.

If you don't like the law, change it.

AGREED!!! But of course, post hoc application isn't right, either. :-)

So Jesus changed it all? I guess Jews also have reason for changing, without Jesus, but it does seem awfully convenient to stop following some of those laws without believing Jesus came to change their application.

But the YouTube question referred to the KJV...and as such, includes the NT. But I ask more broadly.

2,526 posted on 11/28/2007 9:24:08 PM PST by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: SHEENA26
Glad you admit that Romney is a damned liar, and is responsible
for the BIGdig coverup, socialized RomneyCARE,
the imposition of gay marriage (he could have told the clerks to obey the Constitution),
and his endless fake troopers, badges, and attackRomneyBOTs like yourself.
2,527 posted on 11/28/2007 9:24:37 PM PST by Diogenesis (Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum)
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To: Kevmo; All

Here are the Intrade deltas. The clear winner: Huckabee, the loser: Romney.

Contract..........original price... current price... delta

2008.GOP.NOM.GIULIANI 41.5 42.3 +1.2

2008.GOP.NOM.ROMNEY 26.4 26.0 -0.4

2008.GOP.NOM.HUCKABEE 9.3 12.0 +2.7

2008.GOP.NOM.MCCAIN 7.4 7.4 no chg

2008.GOP.NOM.PAUL 5.4 5.4 no chg

2008.GOP.NOM.THOMPSON(F) 5.7 5.7 no chg

2008.GOP.NOM.HUNTER 0.1 0.1 no chg


2,528 posted on 11/28/2007 9:24:41 PM PST by Kevmo (We should withdraw from Iraq — via Tehran. And Duncan Hunter is just the man to get that job done.)
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To: AmericanMade1776
Big shock Yasmin just recently visited the Middle East....

Gee...wonder if she went to summer "camp" over there.

2,529 posted on 11/28/2007 9:24:55 PM PST by Just A Nobody (PISSANT for President '08 - NEVER AGAIN...Support our Troops! Beware the ENEMEDIA)
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To: flaglady47
FYI, when I and others speak of “last year,” we all are talking about 2006 and not 2007.

Romney kept Harry Spence as the head of DSS for his entire term in office. After four years, one would think Romney would have had some impact on DSS, right? At least Bush put in Bolton for awhile.

You are such an apologist for Romney. And you are ignorant about concepts such as “years.”

I would expect as much from a Romney supporter. You represent them well.

2,530 posted on 11/28/2007 9:25:00 PM PST by ConservativeMind
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To: Lexinom
* Keith Kerr, retired Colonel., U.S. Army; retired Brigadier General, California National Reserve

I know there's a National Guard and the Army Reserve, but what is the National Reserve?

2,531 posted on 11/28/2007 9:25:03 PM PST by Momaw Nadon ("...with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in our world.")
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To: CounterCounterCulture

If anything is clear, to me, about the GOP nomination this time around is that at least they are discussing REAL issues.

Unfortunately, I’m a Fred Thompson supporter and he has not, in my opinion, done well tonight. But I’m not electing an actor or TV personality. I think he has the best policy positions stated to date.

Alas, we are so devoid of intellectual voters today that it takes TV goods to pull it off. Just one more reason we, as a free country, are doomed to fall.

Might as well let the nukes fly now...it’s going to happen soon anyway given no one, and I mean NO ONE, is going to stop the radicals around the world.

And we sit here and debate Social Security. What fools we are.


2,532 posted on 11/28/2007 9:26:58 PM PST by Fledermaus (The Dark Knight is coming !)
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To: Gondring

“So what a President says doesn’t matter?!?”

Yes, and if Mitt becomes President, he will do and say the right things, as he loves his country, as will Thompson if Prez, and others. What are you trying to say, that Mitt is somehow a danger to the Republic because he is a Mormon? I can’t believe you would think that. Did you see him bashing or causing problems for blacks (spawn of Cain) in Massachusetts when Gov? What in heavens name do you think he is going to do as Prez just because he is a Mormon? You must be rational here, not emotional. The man is a good man, and would make a good President. Others among our candidates would be too, but Mitt is one of them. Please do not be unfair and exhibit subtle bigotry for no good reason. It is just so unbecoming when I see Freepers attack the man on his religion rather than how he would run our country policy-wise. Are you an evangelical, as it seems mostly evangelicals are attacking him. Just from what is quoted by Freepers and how the arguments against his religion are presented.


2,533 posted on 11/28/2007 9:27:25 PM PST by flaglady47 (Thinking out loud while grinding teeth in political frustration)
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To: ConservativeMind
Technically, have never seen Romney nor his BOTS 'apologize' for anything.
Instead, they evade, attack, lie, disassemble, buy off, and
frankly --perhaps with the exception of Arkancide-- mimic the Clintons.
2,534 posted on 11/28/2007 9:27:44 PM PST by Diogenesis (Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum)
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To: dawn53
I noticed I got a couple catalogs in the mail this year that only sold American products...it was refreshing to see there must be a market for those desiring to buy American

Care to share the names? I hate buying Made in China items!

2,535 posted on 11/28/2007 9:29:07 PM PST by pollywog (Joshua 1:9 Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid,)
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To: roses of sharon

No. I heard answers as bad as his answers on abortion in Rudy’s first debate. And his torpedo attacks blew up in his face. And just to stick the fork in him, McCain nailed him on the declination to spend otherwise labeled as the line item veto. In one of his many lawsuits against conservatives, he also reminds us of judges he would appoint—Kennedy and Stevens.

I am still waiting on Byron York and the rest of the NYCity shortbus to ask their man Rudy about his new stance on late term abortion.


2,536 posted on 11/28/2007 9:30:57 PM PST by ridge
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To: Big E
We differ primarily on Mr. McCain and Mr. Romney.

Mr. McCain does well when he talks about spending and Iraq, but he failed to give undecided voters a reason to vote for him. The guy who did the song at the beginning may have summed up his situation very well. Many people admire him a great deal, and the rest hate him. Unfortunately for Mr. McCain, his admirers only comprise about 20% of Republican primary voters, and maybe half of them are still going to vote for another candidate. Unless he can move some undecided voters, he loses. He needed to move some of those voters tonight, and he didn't. He can't afford to have events of this kind where he can't swing undecided voters.

I thought Mr. Romney's biggest improvement tonight was that he didn't back down from anyone. He started the attack on Rudy Giuliani and pressed the illegal alien scholarship issue against Mike Huckabee. He looked more like a front runner tonight than he has in the past. He's being pushed by the other candidates as if he's a front runner, but he responded well. He doesn't claim to have all of the answers, but he's a man who has made a career of assembling the right teams to find and implement the answers. For people who don't understand that a president's job is to assemble those teams, he may not come across as presidential, but the rest of us are impressed by his executive ability.

In any case, I appreciate your thoughtful analysis.

Bill

2,537 posted on 11/28/2007 9:33:26 PM PST by WFTR (Liberty isn't for cowards)
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To: pollywog

See the link at post 2513. We put together a brainstorming thread for this exact topic. We came up with several links. Have a lookie!


2,538 posted on 11/28/2007 9:34:12 PM PST by Lexinom (Build the fence and call China to account. GoHunter08.com)
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To: Petronski

We probably don’t want to know...


2,539 posted on 11/28/2007 9:35:56 PM PST by RockinRight (Just because you're pro-life and talk about God a lot doesn't mean you're a conservative.)
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To: Sun
Hunter said let’s buy AMERICAN for Christmas, and it will help our military have jobs when they come home.

Thanks, Sun, I had a meeting tonight so I have to watch the debate later. Good for Hunter! (as usual...)

2,540 posted on 11/28/2007 9:35:59 PM PST by AuntB (" It takes more than walking across the border to be an American." Duncan Hunter)
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