Posted on 11/20/2007 4:44:55 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet
DALLAS - When a pair of Mormon missionaries knocked at the door of Jerry Pierce's home in a north Dallas suburb last month, he marshaled his arguments and stood his ground.
"I look forward to encounters like that. I like to talk to them about the nature of Christ and who Jesus is," said Pierce, a staunch Southern Baptist, the biggest Protestant denomination in the United States.
Mitt Romney, a Mormon, is running into similar resistance as he tries to win over Southern Baptists and other evangelical Protestants in the race for the Republican Party's nomination for the 2008 U.S. presidential election.
Romney will need the support of this traditional Republican base if he is to take on former New York mayor Rudy Giuliani, who is running strongly in opinion polls despite his three marriages and a pro-abortion position that is anathema to many Republicans.
The reason Romney faces difficulties with Southern Baptists, according to many experts, is his Mormon faith. Not only do many Southern Baptists regard the Mormon church as a cult, they also regard it as a competitor that is winning -- or poaching -- converts from among the evangelical flock.
"There are now more Mormons that used to be Southern Baptist than any other denomination," said Dr. Richard Land, president of the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, a 16-million strong group.
"As a consequence, Southern Baptists and other evangelicals have taught their people what Mormons believe and why it's beyond the boundaries of the Christian faith, to inoculate them against those Mormon missionaries," he told Reuters.
This is no small matter for people who take their faith as seriously as Southern Baptists do, and to counter the perceived threat they teach their members in Sunday School to be ready for that knock at the door and be wary of Mormon missionaries.
Romney himself did missionary work overseas.
Some say a Mormon in the White House would help the faith -- founded in 1830 in New York state by Joseph Smith and still struggling with the legacy of polygamy -- become more accepted. This is a dim prospect for evangelical leaders, who see themselves competing with the religion, literally, for souls.
"Many evangelicals do not want to see Mormonism mainstreamed," said Matthew Wilson, a political scientist at Southern Methodist University in Dallas.
For Romney, the stakes are high. He is casting himself as a social conservative family man opposed to abortion and gay marriage, in a bid to win over white evangelical Protestants, who account for about a third of the Republican electorate by some estimates.
A recent poll by the Pew Research Center found he only had the support of about 10 percent of white Republican and Republican-leaning evangelicals.
"There are a lot of conservative Christians who are going to look at the Mormon thing and say, 'Wait a minute, he may be conservative but he's a Mormon,' and they're not going to go there," said Steve Swofford, a pastor in the city of Rockwall, near Dallas, and former president of the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention.
Romney has managed to make some headway with evangelicals who have yet to unite around a single Republican candidate.
He has received support from politically active evangelical leaders such as Paul Weyrich and there is a small group of bloggers called "Evangelicals for Mitt."
On the other hand, there is no group called "Mormons for Mitt" and Romney plays down his faith.
Many Americans associate Mormonism with polygamy, once a central tenet but now practiced by only about 40,000 renegades. One of those renegades, polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs, was sentenced to 10 years to life on November 20 for forcing a 14-year-old girl to marry her cousin.
Evangelical Protestants tend to be more aware than most that the Mormon church now opposes polygamy, but they have other bones of contention, such as Mormon efforts to recruit their members.
NUMBERS AND GROWTH
There is no hard data -- the Mormon church does not crunch numbers on the previous faiths of its converts -- but there is evidence pointing to Mormon inroads among Southern Baptists.
The Mormon faith is growing faster than almost any other. In 1963, its membership stood at two million but now is close to 13 million with over half outside of the United States.
"The church of course is growing everywhere, now somewhat faster overseas than in America. But we do not as a matter of policy attack other churches," said Mike Otterson, a spokesman for the Mormon church in Salt Lake City.
In America some of its fastest growth has been in Southern Baptist strongholds, notably the South, according to data provided by the Mormon church.
In the United States overall its membership grew by 3.2 percent from 2004 to 2006. But in 13 states of the South its numbers grew over the same period by 5.3 percent.
Evangelical soil can be fertile ground for Mormon growth.
Mormons and Southern Baptists take similar conservative stances on social issues and tend to vote Republican, so their cultural and political outlooks are not really in conflict.
"Some Southern Baptists will live near Mormon communities functioning at their best, where they will see in practice the kind of family-oriented, sober, diligent, and disciplined lives that Southern Baptists preach but do not always display," said Mark Noll of the University of Notre Dame.
Noll, a leading evangelical historian, also said the theological underpinnings of the faiths had some similarities.
"Southern Baptists maintain a vigorous doctrine of divine revelation. That latter belief is not too far from the Mormon belief that God spoke to and through Joseph Smith," he said.
At the end of the day, it’s blah blah blah, you can’t provide a website of people who are totally devastated by leaving other denominations, but I can find multiple sites showing that for ex-Mormons.
So, when the facts are inconvenient and disturbing, the only defense is to put your head in the sand. Well that is just plain sad.
“Oh, that guy is dying in the gutter, but lots of people die in the gutter, so therefore let’s call it normal and walk away.”
I have not bothered to look for other web sites because it is beside the point. I am not afraid for the future of America because a Mormon might be president and some ex-Mormons are totally devastated. I don't see any connection between them and Romney or between something that might happen to me or mine if a Mormon is president. What? Is he going to force everyone to become a Mormon? Will people convert to his church because he perhaps sets a good example? If they do... who cares? It's not my business. I care only if he is a ethical, well adjusted man, with charisma and leadership abilities who shares my values and whose vision of America is one I agree with.
I’m a Christian and he’s not a tough sell to me. In fact, he’s the best candidate in my view.
Romney/Hunter ‘08
P.S. We’re electing a president, not a pastor.
It is a cult..but pick your Election Day 2008 cult, Cult Romney, or cult Hitlery!!
I don’t consider evangelical christians a religion either. Religions are Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, Jewish, etc. Evangelical Christian is just some term to lump everyone into one title.
so you will vote for Hillary or Obama or Edwards
I don’t care about his religion at all. He was governor of Massachusetts. Conservative Republicans don’t get elected governor of Massachusetts.
So am I. They are not strange, but they are getting..well.. queer.
In either politics or religion, there are a lot of screwy ideas going around.
My experiences with Mormons is limited. I have had the same experience as you, all quite nice people. I did get one seriously annoyed, when I asked him, "Couldn't you do better than "Joe Smith"? That's what people sign in motel registers!".
In our circle of friends, the Mormon sent the Jew a Ramadan card as a prank.
A month later, the Mormon received a dozen Wedding Anniversary cards where he worked..it was all light hearted, so I never got the impression the guy was a humorless hysteric.
I had heard from people in Utah about how they resent pervasive Mormon influence, yet by all other accounts, Utah sounds like a good place to live.
My entreaty to fellow freepers to confront the Mormon menace in person is not recruiting any volunteers.
I forgot that there is a high per centage of inmates, amputees, shut-ins, and people with no gas money, who attack Mormons on FR.
That is not the teaching of the LDS church. Here are some articles you may refer to:
LDS Apostle M. Russell Ballard in 1993: Equality through Diversity:
Our Father in Heaven loves all of His children equally, perfectly, and infinitely. His love is no different for His daughters than for His sons. Our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, also loves men and women equally. His atonement and His gospel are for all of God’s children. During His earthly ministry Jesus served men and women alike: He healed both men and women and He taught both men and women.
LDS Elder Bruce C. Hafen in 2007: Crossing Thresholds and Becoming Equal Partners
LDS President Spencer W. Kimball in 1978: Privileges and Responsibilities of Sisters
See the LDS Proclamation on the Family. It identifies different primary responsibilities of husbands and wives, including the husband's role to "preside in righteousness". It also allows for "individual adaptation" to the circumstances of the family.
“but it is much more mainstream than the Amish”
You couldn’t be more wrong. The Amish faith is within
orthodox Christianity. Mormonism is not.
That is not the teaching of the LDS church. Here are some articles you may refer to[esar11s3]
Notice no articles referenced where an LDS woman is 100% dependent upon being married to a temple-worthy Mormon in good standing with the church if she wants to reach the highest degree of exaltation (godhood). Otherwise, her spiritual progression is limited.
(On the other hand, Utah was one of the first states to grant voting rights to women.)
I have close relatives on both sides of the current Church divide, and I hear opinions!
My relationship with God is quite personal, and I'm apathetic about a lot of this.
But, you know, there have always been queer Churches. In the city in which I grew up, everybody knew that the queers went to a certain church. I went there a few times, for various reasons, and it seemed to me that the priests were queer. Everybody seemed to shrug it off. But it was important that it remained officially unacknowledged. Today, now that it has been officially acknowledged, people have been forced to take sides.
It was the same in the military. As long as homosexuals kept their proclivities undisclosed, nobody noticed or particularly cared. But if they insist on making a public spectacle of themselves, yes, it offends everybody else.
I suppose I believe in a certain amount of hypocracy as well as apathy.
I have also heard that non-Mormans living in places controlled by Mormons feel a certain unspoken oppression. I've never experienced that... Well, once on a plane ride out of Salt Lake City, sitting next to a Morman couple, I felt them grow supercilious when I ordered wine. They ordered milk. But, in my experience, Mormans have always been friendly, wholesome, kind, and good people--just the kind I like (Man! Am I sick of sleaze!) (And dysfunction!)--and I don't understand why anybody would object to electing a Mormon to public office any more than a Presbyterian, a Catholic, a Jew, or Whatever.
But I'll bet you that if Romney is nominated for the Presidency or Vice Presidency, the Democrat Sleaze Machine will beat him over the head with "Polygamy"! (Nothing is beneath those people.) (Man! Am I sick of... But I repeat myself.)
“I have concluded after extensive consultations with colorcountry, fastcoyote, and the other anti-Mormons, that the great threat to the Republic represented by Mormons in high office is another revival tour by the Osmonds.”
Which is of course a lie on your part. I have worked with many Mormons here in Las Vegas who have exhibited nepotism in public office (a common trait), exceptional ego problems (like Harry Reid), superstitions (magic underwear, crickets, water, fortune tellers), business backstabbing (through the Bishop network), and other anomalies. All of which are peculiar products of Mormon doctrine and xenophobia.
I started studying the effects of the man-God complex 15 years ago after I was threatened one Christmas with being beaten up by a Temple Mormon business partner. He at one point told me that when he was in the newly built Temple, he was vacuuming some sheepskin covered wall and the roller marks “magically” disappeared. I have other examples of such superstitious mumbo jumbo. I also have examples of what is known here as the “Mormon mafia”, a term I did not invent.
I could go on, and have indeed gone on and on in the past, pointing out the multiple instabilities I’ve found. Now this does not mean every Mormon is evil, I voted for our current Mormon Nevada Governor, and when most of you meet Mormons in casual social situations none of these problems occur. It’s when you get caught up with the powerbrokers in the backroom that things get weird because Mormons have a xenophobic history and must have enforcers to excommunicate and cull apostates from the herd. Everything is peachy, until it isn’t, and that’s when the culling happens.
Now while this is survivable at the local level, imagine the President of the United States having to repeatedly explain whether he is using peep stones to reveal his policy, whether he wears garmies, whether the White Horse Prophecy is coming true, how many Celestial wives he’s going to have when he becomes God, then imagine those clean cut Mormon appointees circling their wagons into a paranoid fortress with enforcers. If that scenario doesn’t give people the willies, what would?
The main antis on FreeRepublic aren’t rubes who just fell off the truck, we all live in either Mormon communities and deal with powerful Mormons, or are ex-Mormons or have family members. Ninety five percent of Freepers have no connection to such goings on and have no clue what shunnings are.
If people think this is bizarre paranoia, they should look up “Blood Atonement” and see what the roots of all this are, it is embedded in Mormon culture. But if people want to throw the dice on the presidency, I guess that’s their business.
I've made lots of jokes about the Episcopal Church--like you did about its being queer--and in a vein similar to the clever exchange you mentioned between the Mormon and the Jew. I like irreverent humor. The Catholics tend to do the same sort of thing. My wife was raised Catholic, and she and her family shocked even me with their irreverant quips.
I have also observed--to fellow Episcopalians--that apathy has always been the great strength of the Episcopal Church. That's meant to be funny, but there is a deep truth in it.
The Church of England emerged from the hideous religious wars and horrifying excesses of so-called "Christians" throughout the Middle Ages and beyond (what could be more perverted or blasphemous than to torture and kill people in the name of Jesus Christ?), and, in retaining the rituals of the Church of Rome (and the Roman Empire) while opening itself to more and more tolerance, it created something beautiful, a context that allowed a great deal of individual freedom of belief and exploration and that encouraged people to find their own individual ways of communicating with God and finding their paths to Him, the ultimate human desire.
Roman Catholics assert that the Catholic Church does the same. This may be true. In fact, it probably is.
Deepak Chopra has said:
This is another irreverent quip, but there's much truth in it.
I once had an employee who was very clever, bright, and charming, but who had loads of problems. She was homosexual, alcoholic, dysfunctional--I don't know what all else. She was of African descent, and she had a wonderful, warm, winning, disarming charm, often encountered in Black American subculture.
One day I told a joke that was a bit irreverent. Then I began to worry that maybe I had offended her. So I said, "I think God has a sense of humor, don't you?"
She replied: "I'm depending on it."
The truth is, my experience has taught me and convinced me that God is not only loving, forgiving, and patient but also indulgent.
Those who believe Him to be cruel are horribly misguided.
Those who commit cruel and horrifying acts in His name, commit the ultimate blasphemy.
"My experiences with Mormons is limited. I have had the same experience as you, all quite nice people. I did get one seriously annoyed, when I asked him, 'Couldn't you do better than "Joe Smith"? That's what people sign in motel registers!'."
Too bad he didn't see the humor.
I got an Episcopalian seriously annoyed, when, referring to the "born again, evangelical" service at our Church, as opposed to the traditional one, I asked her: "Do you go to the 9 o'clock service or the Holy Roller one?"
Some people just don't have a sense of humor.
God does. Uh...at least...I hope He does...
Ask Lot and Moses about other people destroyed by God. And don't even think about the people killed in the name of various "religions" since the time of Christ.
I also didn't mention that an LDS man is 100% dependent upon being married to a temple-worthy Mormon in good standing with the church if he wants to reach the highest degree of exaltation (godhood).
1 Cor 11:
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
And that a woman is given a secret name known only to her husband so the husband can pull her through to “the other side” after death.
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