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No justification for using Taser on grandma
Chicago Sun Times ^ | 11/05/2007 | MARY MITCHELL

Posted on 11/07/2007 12:41:38 PM PST by Responsibility2nd

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To: CholeraJoe

They should have stayed on their own side of the door.


41 posted on 11/07/2007 1:16:28 PM PST by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, and writes again.)
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To: Onelifetogive

If the cops can’t handle an 82 y/o lady w/o using their damn taser, then they should be working on the other side of the donut counter, not wearing a stinkin’ badge.


42 posted on 11/07/2007 1:16:53 PM PST by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: Responsibility2nd
No justification for tasing???

How about starting with "Justification for entry".

Cop must be a leftover from Reno's forces!!

43 posted on 11/07/2007 1:20:31 PM PST by Sacajaweau ("The Cracker" will be renamed "The Crapper")
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To: spunkets

From the article: The officers were responding to a request from the city’s Department of Aging.
***

It wasn’t an anonymous tip.

So if it turned out she was being held against her will, you would have fully supported the police decision to leave. Somehow I doubt that you would feel that way.

I should have said “Should the police have anticipated...”

Even being swung by an 82- year old, a hammer is a deadly weapon. I guess they should have just blocked the hammer strikes with their heads.

Cops make mistakes, but I don’t assume they are wrong based on a news story.


44 posted on 11/07/2007 1:21:21 PM PST by NCLaw441
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To: 1rudeboy

“I’ll bet you’ve never stepped foot in a cop bar.”

I’ll take that bet. I believe I’ve still got the pay stubs to prove it. You all talk?


45 posted on 11/07/2007 1:23:23 PM PST by VRing (Happiness is a perfect sling bruise.)
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To: martin_fierro

Too Late!!


46 posted on 11/07/2007 1:23:42 PM PST by theDentist (Qwerty ergo typo : I type, therefore I misspelll. <br> "What happens if neutrinos have mass?")
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To: Kozak

“So if your wife or daughter was being raped in your home you would want the police to find a judge and get a warrant?”

Nope. There’s a difference between the situation presented in the article and the one you’ve described, no?


47 posted on 11/07/2007 1:25:26 PM PST by VRing (Happiness is a perfect sling bruise.)
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To: Politicalmom

Agreed. They shouldn’t be crashing in doors without warrants. PERIOD


48 posted on 11/07/2007 1:27:22 PM PST by Rick.Donaldson (http://www.transasianaxis.com - Visit for lastest on DPRK/Russia/China/Etc --Fred Thompson for Prez.)
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To: NCLaw441
‘Department of Aging’

Orwellian.

The Cops didn’t have to worry about the dam hammer until they breached her door and then she went into her bedroom and grabbed it.

They are lucky it’s Illinois where its almost impossible to get a firearm, if they did, we would have a different headline.

49 posted on 11/07/2007 1:27:28 PM PST by BGHater (Lead. The MSG for the 21st Century.)
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To: spunkets
If the cops can’t handle an 82 y/o lady w/o using their damn taser, then they should be working on the other side of the donut counter, not wearing a stinkin’ badge.

Brave words. When was the last time you had to deal with a demented person? I've seen little old Alzheimers patients pull big handfuls of hair from the scalp of muscular orderlies and nurses.
50 posted on 11/07/2007 1:27:38 PM PST by Kozak (Anti Shahada: There is no god named Allah, and Muhammed is a false prophet)
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To: Kozak

Nobody should ever be dragged out of their home for a “well being” check. For one thing there shouldn’t be such a thing as a “well being” check, but letting that slide anybody that’s well enough to tell the checker to go the hell away is fine.


51 posted on 11/07/2007 1:28:58 PM PST by discostu (a mountain is something you don't want to %^&* with)
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To: NCLaw441
I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but you LEOs have used up all your good will. Most civilians don't care anymore if you go home in one piece or not. When was the last time you saw hordes of civilians who weren't city or state employees at a police funeral?

There are too many badge-heavy black-glove bloused booted thugs out there now, and a LEO's death, like the one in Broward who caught one in the head, provokes a shrug and a click of the mouse. You don't defend us civilians anymore. You prop up and protect a corrupt mayor, or thieving county commissioner, or crooked governor.

Now, when you get caught beating, stealing, raping, killing, it's "suspended with pay" until the heat dies down. After all, how can we 'civilians' POSSIBLY understand?

52 posted on 11/07/2007 1:29:30 PM PST by jonascord (Hurray! for the Bonny Blue Flag that bears the Single Star!)
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To: NCLaw441
"It wasn’t an anonymous tip."

From the article: "Apparently, the department had received an anonymous tip that Lillian Fletcher, who has a history of mental illness, was home alone and in need of assistance."

"So if it turned out she was being held against her will, you would have fully supported the police decision to leave."

Stick with the facts. There was no one inside and no reasonable cause to break in! Furthermore, the evidence is they did not suspect, or believe that anyone was forcing her to send them away. They did in fact believe that they were going to "help" her, regardless of what she thought.

"Even being swung by an 82- year old, a hammer is a deadly weapon."

Not by an 82 y/o lady. These cops weren't toddlers. They were grown men, or butch females.

"Cops make mistakes"

Some mistakes are unforgivable, and this is one of those.

53 posted on 11/07/2007 1:30:02 PM PST by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: VRing
Nope. There’s a difference between the situation presented in the article and the one you’ve described, no?

yes there is, but not much. You implied they should NEVER enter without a warrant. The situation sucks, but thats the way it is. They get called for a welfare check, if you don't act rationally, they are required to make sure she's alright.
54 posted on 11/07/2007 1:33:28 PM PST by Kozak (Anti Shahada: There is no god named Allah, and Muhammed is a false prophet)
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To: Responsibility2nd
Here we go again...

My Grandmother is in her 80s, and if she was swinging an hammer around thinking she was defending herself, she could definitely do some damage.

There isn't really any good choices when cops are forced to restrain the elderly mentally ill. In many cases they have lost a lot of bone mass. Physically overpowering them can result in serious injuries, but so can falling to the ground as the result of being tasered.

"There has to be another way to stop her -- use your stick and block the hammer," she said. "Knock it out of her hand. How hard is that?"

Swinging a nightstick at a crazy old woman who is flailing around with a hammer is likely a lot riskier than tasering her.

It is a sad situation, but I think this liberal idiot should let my grandma whack him with a hammer once before he claims that an 82 year old woman with a hammer isn't a threat of serious injury.

Of course the author also makes an obvious attempt to bring up a guy who died of a cocaine overdose after a fight with the cops that included him getting tased as an example of how a taser could kill someone.

You can see how carefully he has to parse his words to try and make it appear that the taser is what killed the guy.

This is a sad situation. Ideally cops or others could calm her down and make sure she is ok without having to use force at all. However, sometimes that isn't going to be possible.

These people act like tasering is some horrible form of torture which someone might never recover from. It is painful, but not damaging, and not lasting. It is a few seconds of pain and loss of muscle control. I've never been tasered myself, but I've talked to people who have been voluntarily been tasered when being trained to use them.

The say it is something they would definitely try and avoid, but there were no lasting ill effects.

If this poor old woman is somehow scarred by the situation it likely has more to do with having to be overpowered in her own home, than due to the particular method.

Doctors told Fletcher's family that she should be seen by a neurologist because she has fluid on her brain and may have to undergo surgery.

That could very well be causing her psychological symptoms. I have a friend who's mother had to have a shunt put in to drain fluid build-up on her brain. The fluid build-up sometimes made her act pretty crazy, including one incident where she had to be hospitalized and restrained before they figured out what was going on.

Hopefully, that might be a major cause of her apparent mental problems, and they can reduce of cure those symptoms, and she more throughly enjoy the rest of her life.

55 posted on 11/07/2007 1:34:23 PM PST by untrained skeptic
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To: jonascord
Stinging response.

I'm gonna half to bookmark this for later . . . when the JBTs respond.

56 posted on 11/07/2007 1:35:14 PM PST by Bear_Slayer (When liberty is outlawed only outlaws will have liberty.)
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To: discostu
For one thing there shouldn’t be such a thing as a “well being” check

Right. Just leave the old ladies with their broken hips lying in their own excrement. Get real.
57 posted on 11/07/2007 1:36:25 PM PST by Kozak (Anti Shahada: There is no god named Allah, and Muhammed is a false prophet)
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To: jonascord

I am not a police officer, but I am honored to be confused with one. As for the rest of your comments, I will just let them stand.


58 posted on 11/07/2007 1:38:18 PM PST by NCLaw441
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To: Politicalmom
She was in her own home. She told them to leave. They had no warrant. She had no obligation to let them in. Period.

On face value I agree. However, she was known to be mentally unstable, and may have given the officers plenty of reason to believe that she was a danger to herself.

The author's characterization of the situation with the druggie that died of an overdose doesn't lead me to believe that he's portraying the circumstances under which the police entered objectively.

If the woman hurt herself and the police had decided to just leave, the liberals would be in an uproar because the police should have protected her from herself.

I believe you have a right to refuse entry to the police, however if you are obviously suffering from dementia, and not in control of your own actions, it isn't quite so clear.

59 posted on 11/07/2007 1:41:47 PM PST by untrained skeptic
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To: Kozak
"When was the last time you had to deal with a demented person"

Bunch years ago and she was swinging a big kitchen knife. Had Alzhiemer's and thought her husband of 50+ years was a stranger that broke in. SHe needed to be calmed down before the Chicago paramedics could take over.

"I've seen little old Alzheimers patients pull big handfuls of hair from the scalp of muscular orderlies and nurses."

You exaggerate.

As I said these cops needed to be fired and working the other side of the donut counter. They never should have been cops in the first place.

60 posted on 11/07/2007 1:42:06 PM PST by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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