Posted on 07/25/2007 12:57:22 PM PDT by mngran
Pope Benedict XVI said the debate raging in some countries — particularly the United States and his native Germany — between creationism and evolution was an “absurdity,” saying that evolution can coexist with faith.
The pontiff, speaking as he was concluding his holiday in northern Italy, also said that while there is much scientific proof to support evolution, the theory could not exclude a role by God.
“They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other,” the pope said. “This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.”
He said evolution did not answer all the questions: “Above all it does not answer the great philosophical question, ‘Where does everything come from?’”
Benedict also said the human race must listen to “the voice of the Earth” or risk destroying its very existence.
(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...
That places you in a very interesting paradox. You must either accept or establish that you hold supreme knowledge and understanding of the word of God, as it was originally written and spoken, to a greater extent than the collective knowledge and understanding of the thousands of theologians, linguists, and archaeologists who have studied, pondered and debated these issues for the past 2,000 years, or accept verbatim, the words as written and approved another such conference, the Council of the Bishops of Nicene. Which is it?
The reference to Purgatory was very interesting. I’ll have to think about this. Good post.
“However, without your being able to describe some mechanism that prevents such small changes from accumulating indefinitely, there is nothing that prevents such changes eventually becoming what you might label “macro-evolution””
I don’t think so. You need to show me that additional information is ADDED to replication information without harm to the life form. Small changes within a species is NOT macro-evolution no matter how many times it happens. Time isn’t the friend you infer it to be.
"if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector." --Jesus
Who wants to sit in a church and be preached to by someone who where there is a 50% chance he is a practicing homosexual?
There's a 100% chance that I'm being preached to by a sinner. Then again, there's a 100% chance that I'm a sinner. And the homily isn't the most important aspect of the Catholic Mass, it is the Eucharist.
(And to say that 50% of priests are practicing homosexuals is simply slander).
Evolution allows for the possibility of genetic mutations that increase survivability in offspring. The questions of where did life begin and how molecules became animated are beyond the bounds of evolution.
You may be splitting hairs, but you present your arguments well and fairly, which I appreciate.
Hey that leaves us praying for your conversion. But since nothing we believe is true then you shouldn't be concerned about our prayers. We believe the Messiah has come and we are now all God's people. You don't - to each each own. Regards,
“The questions of where did life begin and how molecules became animated are beyond the bounds of evolution.”
Thank you.
Don’t genetic mutations almost always (99%)lead to death?
ROTFLMDFAO
I thought the main purpose of the Council of Nicene was to fight Arianism! Anyhow, most of the conclusions were scriptural and I agree with them. Not because a Council decided them, but because they were scriptural. Same here, with the US Conference of Catholic Bishops. As long as they are consistent with Scripture I agree with them. When they come out with their own conclusions, or just quote “tradition”... I’m off!
Additional information is added via the selection process. The individuals that die vs. the ones that survive to reproduce are like a software "if" statement, that in combination with random gene mutations acts to add information to the gene pool. Happens all the time. Drug resistance is a classic example where literally new information is added to the overall gene pool of a pathogen because of the "if" statement of the drug used against it.
I know, you guys call that "micro-evolution" which is not a term that's scientifically recognized. But even a "micro" amount of information added is still information added, so your argument is baseless.
That will sure surprise the National Science Foundation (and Berkely, National Geographic, Discover, Harvard, the National Center for Biotechnology Association etc. etc. etc.)
See for example:
http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=104626
I thought the main purpose of the Council of Nicene was to fight Arianism!
_______________________________
Dude, that was like centuries before Hitler. And you can’t fight nicene against Arians, you have to be tough, they only respect strength. Geez! Sometimes I wonder if I’m the only one around here that has read philanthropy or histrionics.
Council of Nicea by the way. Created the Nicean or Nicene Creed.
I'm sorry, I have no idea what this means. Can you explain what you're driving at here, and perhaps give me an idea of how this relates to thermodynamic entropy?
Variation does not require increasingly complex information.
Does polydactylism represent an increase in complexity and/or information? If not, why not?
Apparently you don’t buy into the idea of irreducible complexity.
I thought we were talking about the 2d law of thermodynamics being some kind of barrier to speciation. As far as I know, the leading Intelligent Design proponents don't take issue with common descent.
Please explain how the idea of evolution fits into a universe that’s running out of usable energy. Someday the universe will be a cold barren wasteland. No energy, no life.
Setting aside for the moment your "no energy" comment (there is a 1st law of thermodynamics), the sun is presently a functional reactor.
Where did the universe and all this energy come from?
I don't know. Personally, I lean towards God as an explanation.
Where does evolution fit?
As an explanation for biological diversification.
From the Catholic Encyclopaedia: Council of Nicene (aka as Nicea): First Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church, held in 325 on the occasion of the heresy of Arius (Arianism).
Then, if you was being sarcastic, I apologize.
Again, you need to do your homework before trying to run with the big dogs. There were two Councils of Nicene, neither of which reached the final decision as to what was to be in the Bible, they only initiated the Canon process.
The First Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church, known as the First Council of Nicene, comprised of a relatively small number of bishops from Syria and Egypt, convened in 325 AD to decide on the heresy of Arius. At question was whether Jesus was one on being with the Father, or was a separate holy entity. We all know how that concluded.
The Council you are referring to is the Second Council of Nicene. This was a convention called by Constantine following his defeat of Licinus to unify the factions of the church. They set only the first 20 (of many) Canons of Church Faith, some of which seem a little out of place today, follow:
Canon 1: On the admission, or support, or expulsion of clerics mutilated by choice or by violence.
Canon 2: Rules to be observed for ordination, the avoidance of undue haste, the deposition of those guilty of a grave fault.
Canon 3: All members of the clergy are forbidden to dwell with any woman, except a mother, sister, or aunt.
Canon 4: Concerning episcopal elections.
Canon 5: Concerning the excommunicate.
Canon 6: Concerning patriarchs and their jurisdiction.
Canon 7: confirms the right of the bishops of Jerusalem to enjoy certain honors.
Canon 8: concerns the Novatians.
Canon 9: Certain sins known after ordination involve invalidation.
Canon 10: Lapsi who have been ordained knowingly or surreptitiously must be excluded as soon as their irregularity is known.
Canon 11: Penance to be imposed on apostates of the persecution of Licinius.
Canon 12: Penance to be imposed on those who upheld Licinius in his war on the Christians.
Canon 13: Indulgence to be granted to excommunicated persons in danger of death.
Canon 14: Penance to be imposed on catechumens who had weakened under persecution.
Canon 15: Bishops, priests, and deacons are not to pass from one church to another.
Canon 16: All clerics are forbidden to leave their church. Formal prohibition for bishops to ordain for their diocese a cleric belonging to another diocese.
Canon 17: Clerics are forbidden to lend at interest.
Canon 18: recalls to deacons their subordinate position with regard to priests.
Canon 19: Rules to be observed with regard to adherents of Paul of Samosata who wished to return to the Church.
Canon 20: On Sundays and during the Paschal season prayers should be said standing.
The process of canonization continued during the era of the Christian Empire. Those communities that became known as orthodox came close to agreeing on an authoritative collection of scriptures. It is widely believed that Athanasius, an Egyptian who attended the Councils of Nicene in the capacity of a Deacon, was the first person to name the 27 books accepted by most Christian groups today as the New Testament in his 39th Festal Letter, written in 367 AD.
The idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning, that is from Apostolic times, has no foundation in history. The Canon of the New Testament, like that of the Old, is the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations, and which did not reach its final term until the dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council in 1545 AD.
There were many, many attempts to establish Canon regarding which works were to be accepted by the church and which were to be rejected. One interesting observation is that many early Christian groups actually rejected the Pauline epistles as undermining the Old Testament. The African Synod of Hippo, in 393 AD, approved the New Testament, as it stands today, together with the Septuagint books, a decision that was repeated by Councils of Carthage in 397 and 419. These councils were under the authority of St. Augustine, who regarded the canon as already closed. This list was endorsed by Pope Damasus I and has not been officially revisited by the Church since.
Thanks, I learned something today.
Acta est fabula, plaudite!
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