Posted on 06/30/2007 4:36:50 PM PDT by 1066AD
Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets' By Tim Shipman in Washington, Sunday Telegraph Last Updated: 12:30am BST 01/07/2007
Lee Harvey Oswald could not have acted alone in assassinating President John F Kennedy, according to a new study by Italian weapons experts of the type of rifle Oswald used in the shootings.
The new findings will encourage conspiracy theorists In fresh tests of the Mannlicher-Carcano bolt-action weapon, supervised by the Italian army, it was found to be impossible for even an accomplished marksman to fire the shots quickly enough.
The findings will fuel continuing theories that Oswald was part of a larger conspiracy to murder the 35th American president on 22 November 1963.
The official Warren Commission inquiry into the shooting concluded the following year that Oswald was a lone gunman who fired three shots with a Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle in 8.3 seconds.
But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds - suggesting that a second gunman must have been present in Dealey Plaza, central Dallas, that day.
Two of the bullets hit Kennedy, with the first - the so called "magic bullet", ridiculed by conspiracy theorists - also wounding the governor of Texas, John B Connally, after it had struck the president.
In a further challenge to the official conclusions, the Italian team conducted two other tests at the former Carcano factory in Terni, north of Rome, where the murder weapon was made in 1940.
They fired bullets through two large pieces of meat, in an attempt to simulate the assumed path of the magic bullet. In their test, the bullet was deformed, unlike the first bullet in the Kennedy assassination, which remained largely intact.
The second bullet is thought to have missed its target. According to the commission, the third disintegrated when it hit Kennedy's head. The new research suggests, however, that this is incompatible with the fact that Oswald was only 80 yards away, in a book depository, when he fired. The Italian tests suggest that a bullet fired from that distance would have emerged intact from Kennedy's head, implying that the third shot must instead have come from a more distant location.
The findings will encourage conspiracy theorists who hold that Oswald could not have fired three shots in time. For each shot, he would have had to push up the gun's bolt handle, pull the bolt backwards to eject the spent cartridge case and then forward to slide the next round into the chamber, before turning down the bolt handle to lock it in place.
Nearly seven out of 10 Americans believe that Kennedy was murdered as a result of a plot. Depending on which theory they back, the participants supposedly included any or all of the CIA, the Mafia, the Cubans, the FBI chief J Edgar Hoover, the military-industrial complex and Vice-President Lyndon B Johnson.
It is the second challenge in two months to the view of the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone. In May, researchers at Texas A&M University argued that the ballistics evidence used to rule out a second gunman had been misinterpreted.
The findings will be a frustration to Vincent Bugliosi, the author of a 1,600-page book, also published in May, which claimed to put to rest all the conspiracy theories of the past 44 years.
The Italian findings will be hotly contested by those who believe that Oswald was a lone gunman - not least because they contradict firing tests previously conducted, using Oswald's actual rifle, by the FBI and the US Marines, and another study by Washington police marksmen using an identical gun.
Oswald would only have needed to reload the weapon twice in the eight seconds to get off all three shots, since the time was measured only from the moment he fired the first shot. The FBI concluded that a marksman could have fired a shot at least every 2.3 seconds.
In his book, Mr Bugliosi details how after just two or three minutes' practice with the gun in 1979, three police marksmen aiming at three targets representing Kennedy at the same distance from Oswald, got away three shots in less than eight seconds.
One marksman hit the targets twice and missed the third shot by an inch. A second shooter scored a "kill" with his second shot.
Mr Bugliosi recounts three separate ballistics tests that found that the magic bullet could have wounded Kennedy and Connally and emerged in similar condition to the real bullet. But that is unlikely to stop the Italian research fuelling another generation of conspiracy writers.
The Italian Army could not load and fire 3 rounds in 19 seconds. Lee Harvey Oswald made sure that his first round was already loaded before he started the clock ticking was not Italian. /unPC
Conspiracists believed that brief moments of silence contained on the Dictabelt were evidence of the individual shots and even went so far to call them 'impulses', thereby creating something out of literally nothing.
Get up to speed here, please: Dictabelt evidence relating to the assassination of John F. Kennedy
Dictabelt has been impeached as evidence of conspiracy, RGPII.
Something that I’ve always wondered about is this. Since the motorcade came down Main Street, turned right onto Houston Street and left onto Elm Street, why didn’t Oswald take advantage of the Houston to Elm turn and shoot him there? The motorcade was at a dead halt snd Kennedy was right below the window and the shots would have been so easy. One reason why he didn’t was the possibility of a shooter(s) waiting behind the fence on top of the grassy knoll. But we will never know because of the secrecy and the march of time has taken its toll on those involved.
I find it difficult to believe that it took the Italian army 19 seconds to fire three shots with a bolt action. On the other hand, it is the Italian army firing a WWII vintage Italian army rifle. They may have a point.
Let's hope we hear of the restoration of dictabelt tape number 10.
You raise a very good and important question, but poorly conclude the reasoning.
The motorcade's slow left turn onto Elm practically right beneath Oswald's position is indeed one of the best opportunities for an initial shot. Far better than the oncoming long shot down Houston after the motorcade turned right from Main street, but equally as good as the behind shots taken after the motorcade had passed Oswald's position.
Why you conclude incorrectly Oswald's reasoning for not shooting at this moment is because of two things: Chiefly, because the alleged Grassy Knoll position is one of the worst positions in all of Dealey Plaza to shoot from, and secondly because we presume that Oswald fully intended to escape. The direct downward shot at the corner of Houston and Elm is a very good shot for a suicide sniper not intending to evade capture, but is a dead giveaway for someone intending to flee Dealey Plaza, as Oswald very successfully did.
If you would like to see what I mean, I have a link for PC simulation abandonware for you that you may download:
Home Of The Underdogs host: 'JFK Reloaded'
It's a safe and virus/trojan free download and a compelling and meticulously-researched simulation that generated a lot of controversy when it was released. I think that after playing it using the various modeling simulations and virtual camera angles, you will agree with me about the absolutely rotten position for an alleged 'Grassy Knoll' sniper.
Old friend of mine (now deceased) spent part of WWII prosecuting draft-dodgers. He was sent all over the country doing that.
Said all of 'em were Italian.
He went on to become General Counsel in the Alaskan territorial government.
So the guy in the sewer manhole didn;t fire the fatal shot then?
The facts provided by Zapruder's camera, and its speed, are crucial to your single bullet theory. Your theory doesn't fit those facts. Case open.
Three spent cartridges found in the sniper's nest. Evidence proves that the material in Kennedy's head is located entirely in the right side of his cranium. Particle analysis shows that the fragments came from the same bullets and same rifle. Oswald was a creepy left wing loser who had priors and present reasoning for motive. That's my position.
Yep.
What you protest is Specter's 'Magic Bullet Theory'.
You bet.
If you say that it didn't happen that way, then there's another shooter and at least one more bullet, isn't there? So, where is this extra bullet and extra shooter?
You tell me. - The Commission couldn't, and neither can any of you true believers.
If you believe that the shots all came from the TSBD, then did Oswald hand C2766 to 'Mystery Shooter X' so that they could take a turn?
You tell me. - The Commission couldn't, and neither can any of you SBT true believers.
That's what you never address, won't provide an answer for, and I don't believe that you will address it now.
How weird. you cited this post of mine from a month ago:
You know what? Never mind all that. Just tell us where your magic bullet is. That one that killed Kennedy that Oswald didn't fire.
I'm not disputing that the last bullet fired could have come from the depository. Or that Oswald could have fired it. -- Never have.
Where. Is. Your. Extra. Bullet? Answer. The. Question.
I 'have' an extra bullet? Where did you get that idea? From Specter?
-- His theory sure lacks something, I'll grant you fellas that.
211 posted on 06/05/2007 9:09:10 AM PDT by tpaine
That's what I mean when I say that you just say 'Nope, nope. Didn't happen that way. Specter's a crook.' and consider yourself satisfied that you've answered the question. Account for the way the assassination really happened, please.
I don't know, and neither do you or the Warren Commission .
If all you can say is 'I don't know for sure, and neither do you', then we're done ever discussing this again with one another, aren't we?
Suit yourself, but I doubt that you will stop insisting the single bullet theory proves 'case closed'.
I say it has flaws, and I will continue to say so.
If you can't discuss/counter the facts/issues I raise, feel free to ignore those facts.
- Which is essentially what you fellas did at the end of last months thread, cited above. -- Apparently, it's all y'all can do.
Dictabelt #10 is also in ruins in the national archive. Dictabelt's soft vinyl material was intended to be used once, stored for a short time, and then discarded. I believe that the high tech digital restoration technique currently being performed on it (if the project still exists) will produce a very high quality digital image of a very awful degraded recording from Dallas, 1963.
If they clean it up to where they claim that they have restored it to brand new, I wouldn't buy the claim any more than a Hollywood plastic surgeon claims that he's restored Liza Minelli's gay ex-husband's face to brand new.
Either way, whether it's restored or unrecoverable, this element of the manufactured JFK conspiracy will go on and on and on and on in the minds of conspiracy buffs.
I think it's several decades overdue to declare the 1982 conclusion that the Dictabelt recording shows no evidence of conspiracy no matter how much Dr. Don Thomas wants it to.
I just said that there was a possibility of a shooter(s) behind the fence. But you, me, and the cat up the street will never know. But it’s been nearly 43 years so who knows. It happened, it’s over, and life has moved on.
“One of the Carcano website mention a seven pound trigger that’s crisp and the owner was very pleased with it. Funny how all the other website owners like the little rifle”
Funny how you really want to put alot of spin on this subject.
The Carcano trigger is GARBAGE.
................
Anyone tried to smooth and lighten the trigger pull on a Model 38. It is so heavy that it feels like it will never let loose, and gritty. Gentleben
Capt Zorro
Gunboards Moderator
USA
1012 Posts
Posted - 04/28/2007 : 08:30:31 AM
The Carcano is like any other Military rifle, the trigger pull was not made for target shooting. The engagement surfaces of the firing pin and sear can be straightened up with a stone and polished out with a Dremel tool. The camming surfaces of the bolt usually have some heavy tool marks in the later models also.
If there is, where is it?
How do you know a CIA sniper didn't shoot Reagan instead of John Hinckley? It's been nearly 27 years so who knows? It's happened, it's over, and life has moved on. The cat up the street will never know.
Thanks for keeping the beacon of irrational left wing conspiracy theories lit for the intellectually lazy stumbling around in the dark.
“The direct downward shot at the corner of Houston and Elm is a very good shot for a suicide sniper not intending to evade capture,”
Well if I wanted to escape, I would set up for a guaranteed one shot kill to a full frontal torso target AND NOT 3 SHOTS AT THE HEAD ONLY- GOING AWAY.
“How do you know a CIA sniper didn’t shoot Reagan instead of John Hinckley?”
Because he was subdued at the scene with the weapon that fired the shots.
Does their evil know no bounds?
Zapruder clearly shows Connelly unaffected after the neck shot.
There is the proof of the extra assassin.
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