Romney: Attacks On Mormon Religion Troubling

You posted...

John 10:30 “I and my Father are one.”

I posted...

John 17: 21 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

You are the one saying they mean different things. Who told you so? The scriptures do not.

John 17: 21 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us

That is what I am reading. No more and no less. It is all of your cohort that want to tell me it means something different than that we are to be one with God and Christ and charge "blasphemy!" when I say so.

Gal. 1:
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

I find this verse particularly amusing for a Mormon to use in defense of his church. 1800 years after Christ a new gospel was made up by a huckster in New York. He slept with the wives of his followers, lied to his congregation about the adultery and polygamy, and 170 years later the followers of Smith quote Galatians 1:6 to defend their “Johnny come lately” religion not even realizing that theirs is “another gospel.”

Spot on. Good post. However, you should have included the Galatians verse in context. Think of the (alleged) angel Moroni, upon which the whole of Mormonism is based:

Galatians 1
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

No mystery as to why Mormons have Moroni on their graves rather than the cross.

You may not see the difference between glorifying yourself while trying to earn exaltation, and the Biblical act of sincerly loving your fellow man, but the Christians on board here DO recognize the difference.

Night and Day....Black and White.

Joseph Smith taught that loving God meant loving lots, and lots of women, including other men’s wives. You must be careful who and what you base your understanding on.

You actually didn’t post the end of John 17:21 “that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”

If Christians are one “that the world may believe that [the Father] hast sent” Christ . . . that doesn’t somehow make you a God. It makes a Christian part of the Church and a unified church provides consistent and more persuasive witness. The fractured church offers poorer witness than it should.

Regarding interpretation of the Bible, I’ve noticed that Mormon’s, from a Christian understanding, cherry-pick verses with strange results. A Bible that asserts there is one God hundreds of times turns into a polytheistic scripture, according to a Mormon, based on Psalm 82, and a wild (and easily apparent) misreading of the verse.

You obviously don’t understand then why God has sent prophets and apostles to minister to His children. Joseph Smith never claimed to be a savior to the people. He is God’s messenger. One of many. As for temple ordinances, as indeed the Sacrament of Christ, these symbols and ordinances point to Christ- something the people in the time of Christ had substituted. They are not His substitute. But I think you already know that and are just being ornery.

That is why I have been careful not to give ear to any of your tripe.

This may explain some of the 'perspective' problem...

Mormon versus Christian definitions

Word...	Mormon	Christian
Atonement	(1) Used almost exclusively as a reference to Jesus' conquering physical death for all people. By conquering physical death, Jesus made it possible for all people to enter again into the presence of Heavenly Father - if for no other reason than to be judged by him. In other words, they are again 'at-one' with him (atoned). This will happen at Judgment Day. Those who have earned it will live in the Celestial Kingdom with Heavenly Father. Everyone else will live outside of the presence of Heavenly Father. (2) At times atonement includes the thought of Jesus' paying for people's sins. But underlying all such references is the thought that they have to pay him back. For a good example of the LDS view of Jesus' atoning work, see Gospel Principles chapter 12.	Jesus' complete payment, made once, for all the sins of all the people of the entire world. Hebrews 7:27: Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 1 Peter 3:18: For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. Through faith in Jesus' payment, we are given eternal life in heaven.
Bible	One of four books Mormons consider scripture. They believe it to be the Word of God "as far as it is translated correctly" (Eighth Article of Faith). They believe many precious parts have been lost from it (1 Nephi 13:28). Consequently they consider it the least reliable of the scriptures. Many Mormons are not familiar with it.	The inspired, complete and inerrant Word of God.
Damnation	Mormon's Plan of Salvation outlines an intricate process of progression toward eternal life (exaltation). Anything that stops a person in their progression, such as dying without having a celestial marriage, is considered damnation as it blocks or dams their progression.	The consequence of unbelief. Unbelief results in damnation, that is, suffering eternal punishment in hell.
Eternal Life (Exaltation)	Living eternally as a god, synonymous with godhood and exaltation. "Exaltation means the same thing as eternal life" (Learn of Me, p. 72). Eternal life is reserved for those who attain the highest level of the celestial kingdom. Mormons must become perfect, have received their endowment, and been married in the temple (Celestial Marriage) before they can earn eternal life. This eternal life will be lived both with Heavenly Father in the celestial kingdom and as god over their own world which they will populate with their own children.	By faith in Jesus' payment for our sins, we are given the gift of eternal life living with God in heaven as his children.
Faith	(1) The belief that God exists and has given a good plan of salvation (Mormonism). (2) The power God gives Mormons whereby they can resist sin and become perfect. "But he must believe the truth, obey the truth, and practice the truth, to obtain the power of God called faith" (Past Living Prophet and President Brigham Young quoted in Teachings of Presidents of the Church Brigham Young p. 56). The more righteous a person is, the more power (faith) God will give him. "To those who have not begun the quest of comprehension, the word faith appears to be only a synonym for a kind of belief or conviction....It is a principle of power" (Sharing the Gospel Manual, p. 82).	The sure hope of our deliverance from death to eternal life in heaven. Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit.
Forgiveness	Must be earned through what may be "weeks, years, or centuries" of effort. To be forgiven of a sin, one must meet the demands of the LDS definition of repentance for that sin. God 'remembers' the original sin and you lose your forgiveness if you recommit the sin.	The undeserved gift of having your sins separated from you "as far as the east is from the west". Because Jesus paid our penalty as our substitute, we are considered guiltless by God. God does not remember our sins.
Gift	Mormonism has expanded the definition of the term 'gift'. The expanded definition includes as 'gifts' things which are rewarded to an individual only after first completing certain requirements or first demonstrating sufficient worthiness. The expanded definition also includes as 'gifts' things which once received, obligate the receiver to a set of conditions; which, if broken revoke the 'gift'. Most 'gifts' in Mormonism actually fall under the expanded part of the Mormon definition (eternal life, grace, forgiveness, the help of the Holy Ghost, most of God's many blessings). Mormon doctrine goes so far as to say that God is 'obligated' to give a particular 'gift' once the prescribed prerequisites have been achieved by the receiver of the gift. Most of the 'gifts' of Mormonism are not gifts but rewards, compensation, obligatory payments, and contracts.	A gift is something we receive which is undeserved, unearned, offered freely by the bestower.
Gospel	A term that refers to Mormonism in general. Or in particular, Mormonism's intricate plan of salvation. "Mormonism so-called - which actually is the gospel of Christ, restored anew this day" (Sharing the Gospel Manual, p. 176).	The "Good News" of free and full salvation (eternal life with God in heaven) won for mankind by Jesus Christ.
Grace	The power God gives people to save themselves, conditional on their earning it by doing all they can do on their own. "This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts" (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697). "We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23). This grace does not directly provide them with eternal life, but rather with the power to make up the difference between "all they can do" and perfection.	The unconditional, free gift of eternal life given us through faith in Jesus' saving work. Ephesians 2:8-9: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— ⁹not by works, so that no one can boast.
Heaven	Any of the three kingdoms Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. Life even on the lowest kingdom will be much better than earth, and even the vilest of unbelievers will receive a life in heaven. "The book (Doctrine and Covenants) explains clearly that the lowest glory to which man is assigned is so glorious as to be beyond the understanding of man. It is a doctrine fundamental in Mormonism that the meanest sinner, in the final judgment, will receive a glory which is beyond human understanding, which is go great that we are unable to describe it adequately." (John A. Widtsoe, quoted in Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, p. 166). Yet, even in the highest kingdom all but those who have earned exaltation will have less than complete happiness. "How lonely and barren will be the so-called single blessedness throughout eternity!" (Temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 19).	God's glorious home, where all who believed in Jesus' saving work will live forever happy with him. Revelations 21:3-4: And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ⁴He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.".
Hell	(1) Not a place of eternal punishment but the temporary state of suffering wicked spirits experience in spirit prison before Judgment Day. "That part of the spirit world inhabited by wicked spirits who are awaiting the eventual day of resurrection is called hell....Hell will have an end" (Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, p. 165). (2) The regret the inhabitants of the lower kingdoms will experience as they see the glories of the celestial kingdom is described in Mormon literature as a kind of hell. (3) Mormons call Satan's domain Outer Darkness. Only those who leave the LDS church are sent to Outer Darkness.	Satan's domain of unending torment. Mark 9:47-48: And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, ⁴⁸where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ All unbelievers will be cast into hell. Matthew 25:41: "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Justification	Unfamiliar term to most Mormons. Mormonism describes it as God's strict confirmation of the merits or demerits of man's own actions. In other words, LDS justification is God's act of rewarding people on their own actions, rewarding right and punishing wrong.	God declares us (believers) not guilty on the basis of Christ's atoning work.
Paid - As in "Jesus paid for my sins".	Mormonism uses the word 'paid' as a synonym for 'refinanced'. When a Mormon says "Jesus paid for my sins", he does not mean that he no longer owes the debt of sin, merely that the creditor and the terms have changed. The entire debt still remains to be paid!	When a Christian says "Jesus paid for my sins", he means that his entire payment for all his sins has been made, no more debt remains, no further payment is due or could even be made.
Repentance	"It is a long road spiked with thorns and briars and pitfalls and problems" Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness quoted in Gospel Principles, page 123. The Mormon definition includes: 1) sorrow for your sins. 2) abandoning [never again committing] each and every sin. 3) confessing each sin. 4) restitution, as far as it is possible, for every sin ever committed. 5) freely forgive anyone who ever sinned against you. 6) obedience to all of God's other commands [in essence - perfection]. 7) perform works to make up for the sin. 8) there can be no repentance without punishment. 9) you will not even desire to commit the sin again! Points 1-7 referenced in Gospel Principles, pages 124-125. Point 8 referenced in Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, page 224. Point 9 referenced in Missionary Discussions, page 2-14 / Study Guide 2, page 3. From *Teachings of the Presidents of the Church Joseph F. Smith:* True repentance is not only sorrow for sins, and humble penitence and contrition before God, but it involves the necessity of turning away from them, a discontinuance of all evil practices and deeds, a thorough reformation of life, a vital change from evil to good, from vice to virtue, from darkness to light. Not only so, but to make restitution, so far as it is possible, for all the wrongs we have done, to pay our debts, and restore to God and man their rights - that which is due to them from us.	Literally, a change of mind. A turning of one's heart from trust in yourself and your works to trust in Jesus and his work for you. Such a change of heart will result in sorrow for one's sins and a humble attitude of following God's will.
Redemption	Synonymous with atonement.	Christ bought all mankind back (redeemed) from the wages of our sin. See atonement.
Salvation	(1) For most Mormons this is equivalent to physical resurrection, the reuniting of body and soul on Judgment Day. This is the only free gift in Mormonism. This is why many can say they believe they are saved by Jesus alone. They mean that they believe they don't have to do anything to be resurrected. However, this salvation does not grant eternal life (exaltation). That is based on their successful completion of their plan of salvation. Mormonism states that if one makes no effort and is an unbeliever he / she will still be resurrected and assigned a place in the lowest kingdom. Therefore, a Mormon can say that a person is granted heaven solely on Jesus' atoning work. And that person need not even believe in Jesus to attain it. (2) Sometimes 'salvation' is used as a synonym for exaltation, as in "Plan of Salvation" (actually the plan of exaltation).	The free gift of eternal life in heaven with God given us through faith in Jesus' saving work.
Sanctification	A term not commonly used in Mormonism. They use it to refer to a state of saintliness which is obtained as people purify themselves by overcoming sin.	(1) Believers in Jesus' saving work are considered saints by God (sanctified). This refers to our status as citizens of heaven, while living on earth. (2) While on earth, the continuing work of the Holy Spirit resulting in the strengthening of our faith and becoming increasingly Christ-like (holy). (3) The final change that occurs on Judgment Day where believers are forever separated from their sinful nature and are thereby made holy.
Sin	A word not commonly used by Mormons since Mormonism has a weak view of sin. "But all of us are guilty of sin to some degree" (Gospel Principles, p. 117). Instead of talking about sin, they use words such as bad habits, infractions, mistakes, and poor judgments.	Any violation of God's commands, whether in thought, word, or deed. Includes any and all trespass, transgression, iniquity, wickedness, etc. Includes sins of omission (not doing what we are commanded) as well as commission (doing what we are commanded not to do).
Plan of Salvation	In general, Mormonism. Specifically, an intricate plan outlining a process of progression toward eternal life (exaltation). Steps in this process include becoming perfect, temple endowment, and celestial marriage. All the laws and ordinances of Mormonism embody the plan.	God's plan of sacrificing his perfect son so that all who believe in him are saved (given eternal life). John 3:14-17: Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, ¹⁵that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. ¹⁶"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. ¹⁷For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

If you want to change the scriptures or tear pages out of your Bible, that’s your problem, not mine.

If you wish to hand wave a specific answer our Lord gave to a specific question, you may.

And you still haven’t addressed the meat of the scripture that says our “oneness” is the same “oneness” that is shared by God and Christ. If you want to slap your hands over your eyes and ears and then flit to the next verse, that’s your problem not mine.

We started on that list earlier and you did not reply.

Nope - YOU started a list; and did not finish.

That explains the “whole” perspective problem. That comparison was not written by a member of the Lord’s Church. Go to www.mormon.org if you would like to see what we believe. It is an official site for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The “perspective problem” is that you want to tell us what we believe instead of asking us what we believe. Of course it is misguided.

There are many kinds of Dyslexia which is not the kind I have!

Sometimes down is up and up is down...

There is even Spiritual 'Dyslexia' mentioned in the Bible!

As for temple ordinances, as indeed the Sacrament of Christ, these symbols and ordinances point to Christ- something the people in the time of Christ had substituted. They are not His substitute. But I think you already know that and are just being ornery.

No I don't know that. My impression is you need a secret handshake to get past the veil into the higher heaven. You also need to wear special underwear to become a member of the temple, which is necessary to get into the higher heaven. You also need to tithe to become a member of the temple, which is necessary to get into the higher heaven. Etc. Etc. All these are completely and utterly against salvation through Christ, which is a free gift.

Christians believe that Christ was sinless. He lived a perfect life. He allowed himself to be placed upon the cross and died for our sins. On the third day he rose again, proving that he was the messiah. We believe that to accept the free gift of salvation all that is required is that you accept this gift and believe in Christ and Christ alone for your salvation.

Nah, you have to read the Bible in whole, not just bits and pieces. There is one God.

No you are but what am I!

This is why I think your feet don't touch the floor.

Real simple...Did the Lord command us to be baptized of water and of the Holy Ghost? Yes or no?

Pay ATTENTION!!!

That was in another thread!!

No ... next question.

Secret handshakes to get into heaven just bespeaks your ignorance. The fact that all who entered or officiated in the temples of God throughout history wore sacred garments to that purpose shows you have not read the Old Testament. The fact that the Apostles received tithes from the members of the ancient Church shows you have not read the New Testament. On all accounts your ignorance preceeds you.

Do you believe a person can go to heaven without ever confessing the name of Christ?

www.mormon.org

Is this an 'official' site?

Can't be using it if it ain't!!

LDS.org works for me!