Posted on 05/24/2007 6:03:30 AM PDT by Rebeleye
...he was stunned to see two large Confederate flags flying from trucks...emblazoned with the words "The South Shall Rise Again." I'm stunned, too, that people still think it is cool to fly this flag. Our society should bury these flags -- not flaunt them...because the Confederate flag symbolizes racial tyranny to so many... ...This flag doesn't belong on city streets, in videos or in the middle of civil discussion. It belongs in our past -- in museums and in history books -- along with the ideas it represents.
(Excerpt) Read more at kansas.com ...
To this southerner, it means we will overcome the tyranny imposed on the South after the civil war. It is like shaking your fist to assert your self esteem and self interest in the face of overwhelming odds.
As for the flag, it is just another tool used by “victims” and rabble rousers like Jackson, et al. It is an honorable historical symbol.
vaudine
And this is what you are reduced to...
It was a happy accident this war.
Don't be obtuse, Carton. It's a "Have you stopped beating your wife?" question. The answer just isn't the one you hoped to hear on your blame fishing expedition. As well ask "Didn't Beauregard and Davis know it meant war when they besieged Sumter?"
The answer in both instances is the same. They thought it likely might, hoped it wouldn't, and did it anyway to maintain their politically mandated position.
Did you not read the entire exchange between Non-Sequitur and I? For your posts lead me to believe you did not. Especially your last paragraph.
Yeah, I've been following it for the most part. To me, at the end of the day, it was Lincoln calling the south's hand. If they meant to have a war, they'd have it. But they'd be the ones to start the shooting. Your position essentially leaves the south with no will of their own, puppets dancing on Lincoln's string, unable to stop their hands from lighting the fuses on their guns.
A case could just as easily be made that the south NEEDED to start a shooting war in order to swing the upper south states into their camp and to stiffen the spines of their people, who had started to think that maybe this whole secession thing might not have been such a good idea after all.
In Virginia they all say, if reduced to the dread dilemma of this memorable alternative, they will espouse the cause of the South as against the interest of the Northern Confederacy. But they whisper of reconstruction, and they say Virginia must abide in the Union with the idea of reconstructing the Union which you have annihilated. I pray you, gentlemen, to rob them of that idea. Proclaim to the world that upon no condition, and under no circumstances, will South Carolina ever again enter into political association with the Abolitionists of New England. Do not distrust Virginia. As sure as to-morrow's sun will rise upon us, just as sure will Virginia be a member of the Southern Confederacy. And I will tell you, gentlemen, what will put her in the Southern Confederation in less than an hour by the Shrewsbury clock,--Strike a blow! The very moment that blood is shed, old Virginia will make common cause with her sisters of the South. It is impossible that she should do otherwise." --Edmund Ruffin, 1861'In 1861, shortly after the Confederate Government was put in operation, I was in the city of Montgomery. One day (April 11, 1861) I stepped into the office of the Secretary of War, General Walker, and found there, engaged in a very excited discussion, Mr. Jefferson Davis (the President), Mr. Memminger (Secretary of the Treasury), Mr. Benjamin (Attorney-General), Mr. Gilchrist, a member of our Legislature from Loundes county, and a number of other prominent gentlemen. They were discussing the propriety of immediately opening fire on Fort Sumter, to which General Walker, the Secretary of War, appeared to be opposed. Mr. Gilchrist said to him, "Sir, unless you sprinkle blood in the face of the people of Alabama, they will be back in the old Union in less than ten days!" The next day General Beauregard opened his batteris on Sumter, and Alabama was saved to the Confederacy.'"--Jeremiah Clemens, 1864
Then can you point out the instant where I changed from saying Lincoln didn't want war to where I suddenly began saying Lincoln did want it? That where I said he knew without a doubt that resupplying Sumter would cause it? I'm confused on that part.
In fact, my main complaint with Non-Sequitur's argument was that he making Lincoln the sole actor in the affair, and that distorts the picture of what happened at Sumter. To say Lincoln did not know how the South would respond is a distortion of Lincoln's great political savvy.
You know that is not what we were debating on Tuesday. Please try to stay on topic. Will ya?
What you are committing is the logical fallacy commonly known as "begging the question", wherein your desired answer is assumed by the question you ask. If one accepts your premise, one must necessarily accept your answer, because you include it in your premise. Therefore, it is not a proper argument.
Here are three fallacious arguments with the same structure:
"Given that you beat your wife, have you stopped? Yes or no."
"Given that I am always correct, are you not wrong to disagree with me? Yes or no."
"Given that Lincoln's advisers told him X, which subsequent to the event proved so, didn't he know them to be correct before the event? Yes or no."
Off topic - sorta.
I’m heading to Gettysburg for the first time in fifteen years. I’m seeing a lot of changes, and wonder if any of the FReepers in the forum have a recommendation for where to stay.
I’m looking for very very nice accomodations. First real vacation the wife and I have had in several years due to our businesses.
Anyway, all recommendations are greatly appreciated...and any suggestions as to which tours would also be great.
Now instead of receiving an answer to my question of Tuesday, I am getting a lecture on the basics of critical thinking.
Goodness gracious... it would just have been easier to answer the original question.
There was no secret trap to blame Lincoln with starting the war... in fact, just the opposite is true.
Stay at the Red Roof... great, great hotel. Reasonable rates with a Perkins not more than a stone’s throw away.
In fact, my main complaint with Non-Sequitur's argument was that he making Lincoln the sole actor in the affair, and that distorts the picture of what happened at Sumter. To say Lincoln did not know how the South would respond is a distortion of Lincoln's great political savvy.
To say that Lincoln could predict the South's response with 100% accuracy is an equal distortion. Were Davis' or Lincoln's actions entirely predictable to the other side of the dispute, the whole thing would have been a bizarre kabuki play, with each on predetermined tracks. They were not playing Grandmaster chess, they were playing all-in poker.
Enjoy yourself. I'm so jealous.
‘Stay at the Red Roof... great, great hotel. Reasonable rates with a Perkins not more than a stone’s throw away.’
Hmmmm. I’m looking for something a bit more ‘high end’ than Red Roof, which is a fine place to stay, don’t get me wrong.
But its our first true vacation - not counting visiting relatives, in years, so I want it to be ‘memorable’ for both of us.
Right now, I’m leaning towards the hampton inn or the Days Inn on Steinwere (spelling). Jacuzzi’s and a bar are a big plus....(chuckle)
They have been rising since they saw Bob Dole and
his Viagra commercial?????????? JK
Well, if you recognize fallacious arguments, why use them and demand a yes or no answer? Whatever NS answered to your question would be invalid, because your premise was flawed.
You have to do the double decker bus tour. It gives you a very good overview of the battlefield. Then buy the CD tour for your car. This way you can get out and walk. The other thing is just walk it and note epecially where Pickett’s division stepped off. It’s an eye opener (at least to me).
Enjoy yourself. I’m so jealous.
I’ve ‘walked the charge’ and it simply blew us both away considering how long it took, and how much fire was coming from basically a 180 degree arc by the time they got to the copse of trees. We did the CD tour, at the time it was a cassette tape (like I said, its been a long time) and that was very good. This time around the wife insists we get one of the National Battlefield Tour Guides - we kinda followed a couple that ‘bought one’ last time....LOL!
The Gettysburg.com website offers motorcyle tours...I’d love to do that but its about a six and a half hour drive via car, so thats out for this trip.
Anything else you think of, please pass it along. We’re even going to do one of the ‘haunted tours’ while there.
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