Posted on 05/24/2007 6:03:30 AM PDT by Rebeleye
...he was stunned to see two large Confederate flags flying from trucks...emblazoned with the words "The South Shall Rise Again." I'm stunned, too, that people still think it is cool to fly this flag. Our society should bury these flags -- not flaunt them...because the Confederate flag symbolizes racial tyranny to so many... ...This flag doesn't belong on city streets, in videos or in the middle of civil discussion. It belongs in our past -- in museums and in history books -- along with the ideas it represents.
(Excerpt) Read more at kansas.com ...
Based on what?
I don't think it should be too much to ask for some honesty from you especially since you run roughshod over the Civil War threads demanding honesty from everyone else.
Well then please show me up for the deceitful person you think I am, and explain just how you know that Lincoln knew conclusively that the resupply would lead to war?
Slavery wasn't the only issue. Here is something from Jefferson Davis's speech to the Confederate Congress on April 29, 1861. It's an 1861 item, not one from 1860, but it indicates that tariffs and the protection they provided Northern interests at the expense of the South were a serious concern as well as slavery. Italics below were as in the documented version of the speech; bold items were my emphasis.
Strange, indeed, must it appear to the impartial observer, but it is none the less true, that all these carefully worded clauses proved unavailing to prevent the rise and growth in the Northern States of a political school which has persistently claimed that the government thus formed was not a compact between States, but was in effect a national government, set up above and over the States. An organization created by the States to secure the blessings of liberty and independence against foreign aggression has been gradually perverted into a machine for their control in their domestic affairs; the creature has been exalted above its creators; the principals have been made subordinate to the agent appointed by themselves.
The people of the Southern States, whose almost exclusive occupation was agriculture, early perceived a tendency in the Northern States to render the common Government subservient to their own purposes by imposing burthens [rustbucket note: that's the way the document spelled it] on commerce as a protection to their manufacturing and shipping interests. Long and angry controversy grew out of these attempts, often successful, to benefit one section of the country at the expense of the other. And the danger of disruption arising from this cause was enhanced by the fact that the Northern population was increasing by immigration and other causes in a greater ratio than the population of the South. ...
And in the next paragraph Davis mentions slavery.
In addition to the long-continued and deep-seated resentment felt by the Southern States at the persistent abuse of the powers they had delegated to the Congress, for the purpose of enriching the manufacturing and shipping classes of the North at the expense of the South, there has existed for nearly half a century another subject of discord [rustbucket note: i.e., slavery] involving interests of such transcendent magnitude as at all times to create the apprehension in the minds of many devoted lovers of the Union that its permanence was impossible.
When the several States delegated certain powers to the United States Congress, a large portion of the laboring population consisted of African slaves imported into the colonies by the mother country. In twelve out of the thirteen States negro slavery existed and the right of property in slaves was protected by law. This property was recognized in the Constitution, and provision was made against its loss by the escape of the slave. ...
And Davis then went on talking about slavery.
I've posted the following before, but perhaps you haven't seen it. It is from the New Orleans Daily Picayne published after Louisiana seceeded, IIRC.
Some months ago [i.e., prior to Louisiana seceding] we said to the Northern party, "You sought sectional aggrandizement, and had no scruples as to the means and agencies by which to attain your unhallowed purposes. You paid no heed to the possible consequences of your insane conduct." ... The South was to be fleeced that the North might be enriched.
Sounds like they were a little ticked off about the sectional aggrandizement that the tariff resulted in.
No, actually my degree is in business and as for original work I was the featured op-ed columnist in my local newspaper for three years, wrote a regular local history column for them and also served as a journalist writing stories on everything from military history to the difficulties of finding a new director for our city art museum. Among my current duties is serving as managing editor of a quarterly trade magazine, for which I write the occasional feature.
In short, another "oops" for you.
The claim was made that the definition for the “grapes of wrath” line in the Battle Hymn of the Republic, written by the wife of one of John Brown’s friends in 1861, may be found in the address given by Lincoln in 1865.
Um...so you really don't get that I was saying both Lincoln and Howe were talking about God's judgment on the nation for slavery? You really think I was saying that Julia Ward Howe read/heard/received as a download on the space radio Lincoln's Second Inaugural almost four years begfore it was delivered? It's impossible for you to conceive these people were talking about the same subject, in different years, using different phrasing? You really don't get that even after I posted the paragraph where Lincoln talks about God's wrath being visited on the nation?
And you're criticizing my reading skills? Good gravy!
I don’t need to show you up. You did that all by yourself by refusing to answer the question and hiding behind words like beyond a shadow of a doubt, conclusively, and the all too familiar, you provide proof.
The answer is obviously "no". Lincoln was not a psychic. What Lincoln knew was that it was a strong possibility, but also a possibility that the situation at Sumter could be maintained as status quo or even that the hotheads would back off.
Just as JFK didn't know the reactions of the Russians in the Missile Crisis before he made his move; neither did Lincoln have foreknowledge of Davis' next move. He had only educated guesses as to whether he would receive bluffs and sabre ratting, or attack by the South. Such is the nature of brinksmanship in politics.
A neat trick, since Abel P. Upshur was killed by a gun explosion aboard the USS Princeton in 1844.
No Lincoln was not a psychic. But he wasn't politically naive or stupid.
For it seems only Lincoln knew that sailing those ships in the harbor would not result in a Civil War.
Lol. That sure explains why Southerners protested against the high tariffs for decades! </sarcasm>
2) In the major speeches, they were overwhelmingly focused on slavery, not the tariff.
Because yankees refused to abide by their legal agreement and strove to incite civil unrest and a slave rebellion. Yankees had made their billions in the slave trade, and now found morals.
3) No, it's not "wrong." The fact is, if you import bananas and you don't make bananas, you either get them or you don't. A small tax on bananas doesn't do a lot to change consumption if there are no subsitutes.
Sigh. A small tax? Send me 48% on everything you purchase.
What the new evidence on the tariff is showing is that the types of imports covered by the tariffs were subject to substitution---you could buy British textiles, or make your own, or whatever.
England has product A for export - no tariff. Price is $1. Yankees manufacture INFERIOR product priced at 1.15, get special protection from Congress, English product now costs $1.48. Yankees raise theirs to 1.30 - ensuring higher revenues (aka PROFITS) for themselves. If Southerners purchase Yankee product NO tariff revenue is raised - manufactures keep it all. If they purchase English they pay more, and receive LESS in return for their exports.
If you don't think it makes a difference just tack on an extra 48% on everything you buy and donate the money to charity. Southerners complained because they understood simple economics.
I do NOT favor a tariff, period, and certainly not one disporportionately aimed at a particular group.
Same here.
But it's sophistry and a smokescreen to try to blame the tariff for disunion and secession. It was all about slavery. They knew it, and you know it.
That explains why Lincoln railed against the loss of the Southern states and demanded to know how the government would raise revenues.
1. How sure are you that the guy Jesus healed was a slave? The word used "pais," IIRC) is so ambiguous that gay theologians claim it means he was the Centurion's live-in boyfriend. Thayer and Smith's lexicon lists these as possible meanings: a child, boy or girl, infants, children, servant, slave, an attendant, servant, specifically a king's attendant, minister. Slave is only one option.
BTW, you may have noticed that Jesus didn't condemn a lot of people who were obvious sinners. Take the woman caught in adultery for example.
2. Are you actually comparing the slavery the Greeks, Romans and Jews practiced with the chattel slavery practiced in the American South?
3. If chattel slavery is so cool with the Almighty, why did he whomp Egypt so hard prior to the Exodus?
4. If the Almighty is OK with slavery and slavery was a legitimate state's rights issue, would you support repealing the 13th Amendment returning the issue to the states? If not, why not?
5. Oh, and passages of scripture condemning slavery? Try this one. I'm not aware of many business operations that the Bible compares to adultery and sexual perversion.
Sez you, from the comfort of the certainty of the future looking backward.
Since you can establish such certainties as to KNOW what consequences flow inevitably from what actions, why aren’t you Secretary of State? I’m sure Bush could benefit from such foreknowlege on sujects like what to do about a nuclear Iran and N. Korea.
Then by all accounts this is a very Southron victory for you. Misquote to begin with, refuse to accept answers, call your opponent a liar, and declare victory. You must be very happy.
I'm sure Lenin and Mao also believed that strength was essential to get things done in politics. So do a lot of other political thugs. What would we today think if a breakaway political leader started to accumulate nuclear weapons a couple of weeks after taking power?
If you want to break away from the rest of the country, you have to establish your moral and political legitimacy first. Calling for a force several times the size of the national army, as Davis did, doesn't do that and scares the people you have to convince.
I don't have to look backwards from the future to know what Lincoln knew. I just have to listen to the Lincoln and his close associates to know that he realized the consequences of his resupplying Ft. Sumter would be war.
You were not misquoted.
You evaded the question and did not answer.
Liar - If the shoe fits.
Then reverse my victory and give me an honest answer.
Then why was there such a heated debate about the subject in the confederate cabinet after Lincoln sent the resupply message to Pickens?
Given that pro-secessionist forces were already seizing US forts, stealing federal property and threatening unionists, one can be skeptical of such professions. It's the kind of boilerplate that politicians use to conceal what's really going on.
There were those in Lincoln's cabinet, Montgomery Blair comes to mind, who said he had to for it was the right thing to do, and then there was Chase who was on both sides of the issue at the same time... and there was Seward believing Lincoln too stupid to be president, and finally there were those who thought he should just let the forts go because they should not be the reason war came.
By the way, how are you doing? It was nice getting to know you on the Righter's Club thread.
I hope you have read the whole exchange bewteen Non Sequitur and I to know what the argument is really about.
Penn & Teller used to incorporate Mofo the Psychic Gorilla in their act. I wondered why they dropped him, but now I think I know why. It has to be because Mofo’s providing channeling services for the Southron contingent.
Not would, but could be war. It is certain that the South was threatening it, should the resupply ships come, but until they lit the cannons off, there was no certainty. Perhaps Lincoln credited them with more sanity than they possessed.
Neither side was absolutely committed until Beauregard fired.
There you go again, putting words in my mouth. I didn't say 'southern' I said 'southron' as in those die hard supporters of the confederate rebellion.
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