King Herod's tomb discovered, Israeli university says

YNet ^ | May 7, 2007

[Alouette]

Hebrew University announces discovery of Roman king's tomb at Herodium near Jerusalem

Reuters Published: 05.08.07, 00:50 / Israel News

The Hebrew University of Jerusalem announced on Monday the discovery of the grave and tomb of Herod the Great, the Roman empire's "King of the Jews" In ancient Judea.

The University said in a brief statement the discovery was made at Herodium, where Herod's hilltop fortress palace once stood some 7 miles from the holy city where he had rebuilt and expanded the Jewish Temple.

The university said it would give further details at a news conference on Tuesday.

The Gospel of Matthew says Herod ordered the "Massacre of the Innocents", The killing of all young male children in Jesus' birthplace of Bethlehem out of fear he would lose his throne to a new "King of the Jews", whose birth had been related to him by the Magi.

According to Matthew, Joseph and Mary fled with baby Jesus to Egypt to escape the slaughter.

The Roman Senate appointed Herod "King of the Jews" in approximately 40 BC. According to the ancient Jewish historian Falavius Josephus, Herod died in 4 BC.

[Alouette]

Herod ordered the "Massacre of the Innocents", The killing of all young male children in Jesus' birthplace of Bethlehem

There is no mention of any such massacre in any other historical accounts, such as Josephus or the Talmud.

[Alouette]

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[Alouette]

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[cdbull23]

I'm not very savvy when it comes to this stuff, but I have a question.

The article says that Herod died in 4 BC. What year, then, would we say Jesus was born? I always thought it was simply 0...but I'm guessing that I'm wrong, since he would not have been around at the time Herod ordered the "killing of the young."

[Alouette]

Herod did order and oversee the killing of all the male lineage of the family of the Hasmonean dynasty, in order to eliminate the ruling family and claim the throne for himself. But this occurred decades earlier, before he came to power.

[Deut28]

The “Gospel” of James does mention it as well, though that text is beyond suspect.

Josephus does record that Herod ordered the killing of his young Jewish children for fear that they sought to take over his throne.

[Blogger]

Bethelehem’s population was quite small in those days. There weren’t likely a ton of children who were killed. Nevertheless, they were slain.

Herod was a ruthless tyrant. Josephus and the Talmud were not exhaustive accounts of his life, nor did they have any interest in preserving anything that bolstered the Christian’s argument.

I would not discount something because it isn’t mentioned in the Talmud or Josephus. Many things are not, yet are historically true.

[NYer]

Matthew
Chapter 2

1

¹ When Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, in the days of King Herod, ² behold, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem,

2

saying, "Where is the newborn king of the Jews? We saw his star ³ at its rising and have come to do him homage."

3

When King Herod heard this, he was greatly troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

4

Assembling all the chief priests and the scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born. ⁴

5

They said to him, "In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it has been written through the prophet:

6

'And you, Bethlehem, land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; since from you shall come a ruler, who is to shepherd my people Israel.'"

7

Then Herod called the magi secretly and ascertained from them the time of the star's appearance.

8

He sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and search diligently for the child. When you have found him, bring me word, that I too may go and do him homage."

9

After their audience with the king they set out. And behold, the star that they had seen at its rising preceded them, until it came and stopped over the place where the child was.

10

They were overjoyed at seeing the star,

11

⁵ and on entering the house they saw the child with Mary his mother. They prostrated themselves and did him homage. Then they opened their treasures and offered him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

12

And having been warned in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed for their country by another way.

13

⁶ When they had departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Rise, take the child and his mother, flee to Egypt, ⁷ and stay there until I tell you. Herod is going to search for the child to destroy him."

14

Joseph rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed for Egypt.

15

⁸ He stayed there until the death of Herod, that what the Lord had said through the prophet might be fulfilled, "Out of Egypt I called my son."

16

When Herod realized that he had been deceived by the magi, he became furious. He ordered the massacre of all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had ascertained from the magi.

17

Then was fulfilled what had been said through Jeremiah the prophet:

18

⁹ "A voice was heard in Ramah, sobbing and loud lamentation; Rachel weeping for her children, and she would not be consoled, since they were no more."

---

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[Alouette]

Josephus does record that Herod ordered the killing of his young Jewish children for fear that they sought to take over his throne.

Josephus records that Herod ordered the killing of the Hasmonean dynasty (who belonged to the priestly Sadducean class), not all Jewish children.

[Salvation]

Bump for the Gospel of Matthew — you beat me to it. Thanks!

[Lazamataz]

There is no mention of any such massacre in any other historical accounts, such as Josephus or the Talmud.

(Half-crazed Too-Much-Caffeine Wired-Denis-Hopper Apocolypse-Now-Photographer voice) Hey man! I was there man! I saw it! I saw it! I mean, you didn't talk to King Herrod, you listened to him! The man's enlarged my mind, like a big empty universe, you know? With stars. Stars and galaxies, man. Herrod was a poet-warrior in a costume, you know, a Bozo the clown with a running chainsaw slipping in blood and laughing all at the same time, you know? I mean I'm no, I can't -- I'm a little man, I'm a little man, he's, he's a great man. I should have been a pair of ragged claws scuttling across floors of silent seas -- I mean --

[Alouette]

nor did they have any interest in preserving anything that bolstered the Christian’s argument.

A wholesale massacre of all the Jewish children in a specific town is something that the Jews would remember, not just Christians.

[Deut28]

I wasn’t refering to the Hasmonean dynasty, I was refering to Herod ordering the killing of his own children. That was also recorded by Josephus.

You seem to be confusing Herod killing off another family, and killing off his own.

Either way, history clearly shows that Herod was willing to massacre the innocents if he believed they posed a threat.

[CondorFlight]

Herod was said by Josephus to have died shortly after an eclipse of the moon—hence, maybe in 4 BC.

However, there was a good, visible, partial eclipse in 1 BC; so the date of his death remains a bit uncertain.

As for killing innocents, Herod killed them in droves, and a few more or less in Bethlehem needn’t necessarily have attracted much attention.

However, the 4th century pagan writer Macrobius ascribes a pun to Augustus : (chapter 4, Saturnalia)

“Augustus Caesar, said Avienus, was fond of a joke, but he did not forget the respect due to his high rank, and he showed a proper regard for decency—he never stooped to buffoonery. [There follow several examples of his humor.]

“When he heard that Herod king of Judea had ordered boys in Syria (i.e., Judea) under the age of two years to be put to death and that the king’s son was among those killed, he said, “I’d rather be Herod’s pig than Herod’s son.”

(This makes a pun in Greek on ‘pig’ and ‘son’; pigs supposedly not being killed to be eaten in Judea.)

It is possible that Herod’s final frenzy in which he put to death at least one son for fear of being assassinated by a would-be successor, was brought on in part by tumult over
the idea that the messiah had finally come (a ferver which was endemic at that time anyway.)

[Deut28]

A wholesale massacre of all the Jewish children in a specific town is something that the Jews would remember, not just Christians.

Matthew WAS a Jew.

[NYer]

A wholesale massacre of all the Jewish children in a specific town is something that the Jews would remember, not just Christians.

That would make sense; however, the children were aged 2 and under and the 'massacre' was ordered by their own king. It's not likely this would have been recorded since it would have been an affront against the wisdom of the king.

[NYer]

However, the 4th century pagan writer Macrobius ascribes a pun to Augustus : (chapter 4, Saturnalia)

Thank you for posting this. So now we have a 2nd, though extra biblical source, for the same event.

[MeanWestTexan]

The assumed population of Bethlehem was about 1,200. Infants in a town that size, in that age, is something like 1/35. That’s about 34 children.

That’s bumpkis in Herod’s bodycount.

[STD]

Jesus was without a doubt born in 5 BC

[NYer]

Defending the massacre's authenticity

Some scholars and Christian apologists defend the massacre as something that Herod was cruel enough to do and small enough to pass without remark outside the Gospel of Matthew.

Josephus records Herod's execution of two of his sons and his wife Mariamne because he believed they posed a threat.^[4] The execution of the two sons, whom Josephus describes as young men, has been represented by Robert Eisenman as the original that inspired the account in Matthew, since his two sons were the Jewish children that Herod believed had sought to replace him.

Josephus records several examples of Herod’s willingness to commit such acts to protect his power against perceived threats, but suggests that not all such acts were recorded, as he summarizes that Herod “never stopped avenging and punishing every day those who had chosen to be of the party of his enemies.”^[5] "Such a massacre," it has been observed, "is indeed quite in keeping with the character of Herod, who did not hesitate to put to death any who might be a threat to his power."^[6]

The Catholic Encyclopedia speculates about the reason Josephus did not include an account of the slaughter: "…St. Matthew's positive statement is not contradicted by the mere silence of Josephus; for the latter follows Nicholas of Damascus, to whom, as a courtier, Herod was a hero." It also cites Maas: "Cruel as the slaughter may appear to us, it disappears among the cruelties of Herod. It cannot, then, surprise us that history does not speak of it".^[7]

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