Posted on 05/07/2007 11:36:09 AM PDT by bedolido
CBNNews.com - Virginia Beach, Va - Before the celebrating came the turning of tassels and accepting this charge:
"I want you to strive for greatness through service," said CBN founder Pat Robertson.
The largest class in Regent's history sang a hymn bowed their heads in prayer.
"Father," prayed Pastor Jack Hayford. "We come with hearts of gratitude for each of these graduates."
{snip}
Some say they were initially skeptical about having a Mormon address a Christian audience.
"There were some people who were alarmed," said Regent graduate Cassy McLauchlin. "I was surprised because I just didn't think he was the speaker we would have here, but they let us know he wasn't coming to speak on any theological issues but he was coming to address us at graduation."
(Excerpt) Read more at cbn.com ...
I am dyslexic maybe in the future should you come across a strange post you might conside if that person is afflicted with dyslexic or autism!
>>>The Bible is absolutely clear on these points. I don't need any special interpreter such as Joseph Smith, nor does anyone else.
Actually you are using a special interpretaion promoted by the Greek philosophers. It is not what the actual Bible text says. Essense and incarnation (& Homouosis) are found nowhere in the Bible so to say teh Bible speaks these words is incorrect. When the Apostles were killed the post Apostolic Christians started plaigarizing from the Greeks.
There were no occurrences of the word ESSENSE found in the Text of the Scriptures. & There were no occurrences of the word INCARNATION found in the Text of the Scriptures.
If you don't think this had an effect on the Christian church, just imagine how Church doctrines that are considered "Orthodox" today would be altered if the Democratic party stepped in with the governement and took over the Church.
Plutarch and Numenius
Socrates and Plato held that (God is) the One, the single self-existent nature, the monadic, the real Being, the good: and all this variety of names points immediately to mind. God therefore is mind, a separate species, that is to say what is purely immaterial and unconnected with anything passible.23
But let no one laugh, if I affirm that the name of the incorporeal is "essence" and "being." And the cause of the name "being" is that it has not been generated nor will be destroyed, nor is it subject to any other motion at all, nor any change for better or for worse; but is simple and unchangeable, and in the same idea, and neither willingly departs from its sameness, nor is compelled by any other to depart.24
I am not asking you to accept the Book of Mormon as the word of God. I am making the point that it doesn't make any sense to try to discuss Mormon Doctrines by limiting the source material of those Doctrines.
As far as Joe Smith having a pair of spectacles made out of the Urim and Thummim in the 19th century...well, all I can say is it's no wonder Christians have trouble taking Mormon doctrine seriously.
And this?
This earth in its celestial condition will be a Urim and Thummim, and many within that kingdom will have an additional Urim and Thummim (D&C 130: 6-11).
Really...that's a new one for me. I'll remember it. Thanks for the laugh.
John 15: 24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. 25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. 26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me : [KJV] [and if that isn‘t a clear picture of all three in one sentence of Jesus’s teaching the oneness in three --and the Hebrew word for ‘one‘ can also be translated ‘unity‘-- try reading the following sequence of scriptures … Deuteronomy 6:4 then John 1: 1; 14 then John 14: 5 - 11 then remind yourself with the Baptism blessing ‘in the name of the Father, the Son, and The Holy Spirit.
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. … 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John14 5 - 11: 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
We have lots of things from Bible times.
Apostles are my favorite example.
I partially agree... so I won't discuss mormon issues any more... well maybe just suspend myself from mormon postings for 3 days as punishment. However, I don't think it wise to read fiction as if it is non-fiction.
Let this end... you cannot convince me and I cannot change your mind either.
have a great day.
The Urim and Thummim were part of the Old Testament sacrificial system which has not been needed since Christ died. Joe Smith was fooling you.
Actually prior to the Council of Nicea neither did many early Christians. The church fathers changed all that when they decided what was appropriate to be included in the NT and church doctrine.
I wasn’t trying to insult you. I was actually wondering if English was your second language.
Of course they aren't the same person. Just as Matthias was not the same person as Judas. After Christ's death more Aposltes were called.
Acts 1: 23, 26 23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. • • • 26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
The Apostles today are called in the same manner as those of the Bible. By revelation from God, by the laying on of hands by those who have the priesthood authority and keys.
The further implication being that the Urim and Thummim could be used today as they were in Bible times which is false. The Urim and Thummim were part of a now-defunct sacricial system.
The Urim-Thummim-spectacle thing is one of Joe Smith's quirkier contentions though he did have his large share of them.
Good scriptures. But how about these as an argument against the trinity:
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (Now, if the Father, Son, & Holy Ghost are one, how could the Father be greater than the Son?)
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. (This was part of the great intercessory prayer where the Lord was praying to the Father for his disciples. How can they be one as the Father & the Son are? Are the disciples part of the trinity as well?)
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (Here, The Lord is talking to Mary. What does it mean, My Father & your Father; My God & your God?)
Can you see where it gets difficult to use man’s interpretation? Who’s interpretation is correct?
As far as the man becoming God issue discussed elsewhere on this thread someone explain the following scripture:
John 10:34-36. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
The scriptures can be very plain as long as we don’t TRY to make them complicated.
If some of you are truly seeking for the truth, why not go to the author? Is the Lord really the author of so many differing doctrines found in Christianity under the auspices that as long as they believe in Christ all is well? Paul went throughout the land teaching Christians that there was but one doctrine & to stop perverting the ways of the Lord. He didn’t tell those at Corinth that as long as they believed in Christ, it didn’t matter about the perversions.
I really do believe the Lord answers prayers of those earnestly seeking the truth. By power of the Holy Ghost. Just as he said he would repeatedly in the scriptures. I really feel sorry for those that feel the heavens are closed. But, to each his own.
Actually my understanding of Apostles is that they are not one in subtanse as the Greek's like to pontificate but one in the way Jesus explains he and his Father are one as he prays for the Apostles. He saying one "Essense" (Greek philosophy).
John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
= He isn't saying one "Essense" (Greek philosophy).
I'm not sure what you mean. You're not clear. There are still people involved in apostolic works who may carry the gospel into new territory.
However, the sacrificial system ended with Christ's sacrifice (death). This included the use of the Urim and Thummim, despite Joseph Smith's claims to the contrary.
Actually my understanding of Apostles is that they are not one in subtanse
I think you must have meant to post the above to another person. It does not pertain to our discussion.
From your post: Can you see where it gets difficult to use man’s interpretation? Who’s interpretation is correct? Then you state further on: The scriptures can be very plain as long as we don’t TRY to make them complicated.
My offering to which you responded was a citation of the teaching of Jesus, only, and the inclusion of the three persons of the trinity without stating 'trinity'. Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling for if you are in Christ it is He that is in you doing the work, that not of yourself lest anyman boast of his filthy rags works in God's presence. How is He within you? By the person of the Holy Spirit, to the extent which your mortal bands can permit Him to be indwelling you. All you can see of the Creator of the Universe is what you could see in a fellow Christian and also in the handiwork of The Word Who was made manifest and dwelt among us, as that one in Christ shows forth a new creation.
You won't bait me into another response to you. I will not aid the spirit of anti-Christ by wrangling on your contradictory terms. I too "feel sorry for those that feel the heavens are closed." But I feel even more sorry for those whose desire it is to twist scriptures in order to sow seeds of doubt among milk-fed Christians in order to build up the numbers of the Mormon religion.
Here are your offered seeds, with a common sense response only:
Your cloying plea; "But how about these as an argument against the trinity":
---John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. To which you opined seductively, "Now, if the Father, Son, & Holy Ghost are one, how could the Father be greater than the Son?" Jesus Himself answered you in John chapter fourteen, in His physics lesson to Philip: 'to the extent that The Creator of the Universe may be contained in the flesh and bones of a man, you can see that much of God The Almighty.'
---John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. To which you hissed, "This was part of the great intercessory prayer where the Lord was praying to the Father for his disciples. How can they be one as the Father & the Son are? Are the disciples part of the trinity as well?" How? ... In the person of the indwelling Holy Spirit to the extent that each is capable of containing the essence of God. But that was a nice try to twist the text to fit your agenda.
---John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: And Jesus affirms what I just related to you 'that they may' meaning to 'the extent to which'. And if you don't believe that, check the Greek for ways the entry may be translated.
---John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.And you seek to twist this passage to defend the Mormon doctrine of deification of man, with "Here, The Lord is talking to Mary. What does it mean, My Father & your Father; My God & your God?" To all flesh that receives His Holy Spirit through His Grace, The Father in Heaven -the same Jesus Who now has a flesh and bones body, and the Holy Spirit-- IS the God of us all, even the created beings like Satan and the fallen Angels and retained Angels, but not Jesus for He is not a created being, He is God as you can see Him with a flesh and bones body.
Hebrews 5: 1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: 2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. 3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. 4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Acts 6:6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.
>>>There are still people involved in apostolic works who may carry the gospel into new territory.
Unlss they are called of God by one who holds the proper authority by the laying on of hands then they are not actual Apostles. Matthias was an Apostle post sacrifical called in the correct way according to the High priesthood.
You know, before you go spouting off passages that you have an incomplete understanding of, I would recommend you do a little "background checking."
What's the Old Testament reference Jesus is citing in John 10?
Ps. 82.
Who did LDS apostle James Talmage (author of Articles of Faith & other LDS books) say Ps. 82 was referencing, true gods?
No way. Talmage said that since Ps. 82:1-7 clearly references "unjust judges" as these gods, they couldn't be referring to true divine gods (unless you think gods are unjust).
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