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They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious Bigotry, alive and well today
Saundra Duffy

Posted on 05/04/2007 5:46:36 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy

They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious bigotry, alive and well today

May 4, 2007 - by Saundra Duffy-Hawkins

“I wouldn’t vote for a Mormon for dogcatcher, much less President of the United States!” There’s a lot of that kind of hateful rhetoric going around since Mitt Romney decided to throw his hat in the ring – as if Mormons are some kind of hideous evil monsters. The loudest anti-Mormon shouts, sad to say, are coming from America’s so-called “Christian right”. How can Mitt Romney hope to get a fair shake in this spiritually polluted atmosphere?

There was another man running for President who faced the same dilemma – John F. Kennedy – only he was the target of anti-CATHOLIC bigotry. In his 1960 speech to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association, JFK said the following: “. . .I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end - where all men and all churches are treated as equal - where man has the same right to attend or not attend the church of his choice - where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind - and where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, at both the lay and pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their words in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood.” John F. Kennedy Library & Museum (Speeches, 1960). By the way, if you listen to the audio version of JFK’s speech, you will hear the hurt and frustration in his voice and the unfair treatment surely must have caused many a sleepless night.

Fast forward to 2007 where JFK might as well have been “whistlin’ Dixie”. The hostility toward Mormons today, in my opinion, is even worse than that suffered by JFK. Although it is said that JFK lost about a million votes to religious intolerance, Romney stands to lose even more if the anti-Mormon evangelicals hang together.

According to Media Matters for America - “. . . a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media” - FOX News is not reporting accurately on the level of evangelical hostility to the Romney run. Media Matters for America points out that among evangelical leaders rejecting Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson (National Day of Prayer and Focus on the Family, respectively), the Southern Baptist Convention (collectively), Pat Robertson (Christian Broadcasting Network), and Dr. D. James Kennedy (Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida). “Among many conservative evangelicals – who comprise a significant part of the Republican base – Mormonism is considered an un-Christian cult.” Media Matters for America (2007)

While stumping in Florida, a man in the audience stood up during the Q&A portion and said the following to Romney: “You, sir, you’re a pretender. You do not know the Lord. You’re a Mormon.” Media Matters for America (2007). This is the kind of un-American, disrespectful treatment Mitt Romney will apparently have to endure throughout the entire campaign – as if just being a Mormon is reason enough to open the floodgates for free flow of pent-up hatred and vindictiveness.

For the record, the Mormon bashers know full well that the official name of Romney’s church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” and the members should rightfully be called “members of the LDS Church” but the words “Mormon” and “Mormonism” have an aura of negativity so they prefer to use the “M” word as if it were dirty.

Less than five minutes cruising around the official LDS website (LDS.org) will show anyone who’s interested that the Church is a Christian organization, with Jesus Christ at the Head. There are no paid clergy – all are volunteers. Humanitarian aid is legendary. Members of the LDS Church believe in strong family values; they are patriotic, they are law-abiding upstanding citizens of their community. Many LDS young men right out of high school go on two-year missions – you know, the guys on bikes – and during their mission they don’t date, read newspapers, go to movies or watch TV; but rather they dedicate two years of their lives to serving others. Many women go on missions as well, and couples, only theirs is 18 months in length but the obligations are basically the same. Most members do not shop or go out to eat on Sundays – reminiscent of the good old days when shops and stores were closed in obedience to the Commandment, “Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy”. If they can help it, LDS Church members do not work on Sundays, either, preferring to spend the day at church and with their families. Church members are encouraged to store up a year’s supply of food and water so they will be able to care for their families in the event of an emergency. The LDS Church believes in self-sufficiency and self-reliance but in the event of a financial hardship the Church distributes food and supplies through their welfare (Bishop’s Storehouse) program. Members of the LDS Church do not drink alcohol nor do they use illicit drugs; they do not drink coffee and tea. A Mormon in good standing, therefore, will not be found in a drunken stupor puking her guts out at 3 a.m. anywhere in the world. Furthermore, members of the church are encouraged to dress modestly, be polite and courteous. And members of the LDS Church are faithful tithe payers. Come on, people, what’s not to love?

So what on earth is their beef, the anti-Mormon zealots? Why is there such disdain for the LDS Church and its members? In Hugh Hewitt’s book, “Mormon in the White House?” he states his thesis that the fierce anti-Mormon sentiment among main-stream Christians stems from one or two or all three of the following factors (in order of importance):

1) “It is just too weird.

2) “A Mormon president will supercharge Mormons’ missionary work.

3) “If there is a Mormon in the White House, Salt Lake City will call the shots, at least on the biggest issues.” Hewitt (2007, p. 221-227)

Hugh Hewitt has written an exquisite book about the Romney campaign and overcoming the “Mormon problem.” It’s a good read and I highly recommend it. Of the three problem points listed in the previous paragraph, Hewitt believes – unless some unforeseen blunder destroys his chances – none of the three is insurmountable for Mitt Romney. (Plus, he has the best hair.)

Well, I’m no Hugh Hewitt, not even close; he’s an icon on the conservative radio talk show circuit. Hewitt could talk circles around me (I’ve seen him in action in Sacramento); he’s brilliant; he’s well educated, well read, no doubt a genius, plus he’s kind of cute. I’m basically a “nobody” – an overweight grandma – but after having researched for this paper, I have come to a totally different conclusion as to why there is such in-your-face angst over Romney’s religion of choice: It’s all about money, power and control (in that order). I think they’re (the evangelical religious bigots, that is) scared half to death and are revving up their attacks, not to save souls, but to save their reputations (which if tarnished would lead to financial ruin).

As I said, all one must do is browse around the LDS official web site to see what the LDS Church believes and stands for. Any reasonable person would conclude that Mormons are not evil monsters at all. In fact, they are God fearing, Christ believing, Holy Ghost following people going about doing good. “You will know them by their fruit” and the LDS has plenty of fruit and they are willing to share.

Earlier, I stated that some high-powered ministries have publicly condemned Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson, the Southern Baptist Convention, Pat Robertson, and Dr. D. James Kennedy – just to name a few. There are hoards of others. Sunday after Sunday, preachers, evangelists, reverends and ministers from all Christian denominations pound the pulpit with anti-Mormon rhetoric. I heard the message loud clear when I was a Baptist and when I tiptoed through evangelical/Pentecostal territories. Was I ever miffed when I later learned for myself the Gospel truth about the LDS Church.

Just think about it, please. If Dr. D. James Kennedy, for example, who wrote the book, The Wolves Among Us, were to admit he’d been wrong in labeling the LDS Church a “cult” that leads unwary ignorant people astray (to hell), what would become of his multi-million-dollar ministry? Suffice it to say, there’s big money to be had by sale of books, tapes, CD’s, videos, and other anti-Mormon propaganda, not to mention speaking engagements and world-wide religious crusades. We’re talking trillions, all told. I realize the anti-Mormon aspect of these ministries is but a small portion of the business, but if the truth came out, that they had been using falsehoods about the LDS Church as a cash cow, their entire empires could tumble.

The ABC News program 20/20 aired on March 23, 2007, exposed the lavish lifestyles of some of the top evangelical preachers – million dollar mansions and personal jets. ABC News - 20/20 (2007) (Again, the LDS Church has no paid clergy.)

It’s nothing new. Severe harassment and persecution has been the lot of the LDS Church since it’s inception in 1820 when a 14-year-old boy named Joseph Smith saw visions and communed with heavenly beings. Rather than discuss the spiritual aspects of the LDS Church, however, let’s stick to facts of history. Taken from a college-level early American history textbook, Joseph Smith, upon experiencing the visions and visitations, believed “that God had work for me to do, and that my name should be for good and evil among all nations, kindreds and tongues.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 292). The textbook continues, “They were met with hostility virtually everywhere they went . . . . As the movement gathered momentum, hundreds of people joined the church; entire congregations of churches of other faiths joined . . .” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 293)

During the dark time of American history when slavery was flourishing and when Native Americans were forced from their lands, the pioneers of the LDS Church also suffered at the hands of unscrupulous politicians, governmental leaders, and angry hate-filled mobs. “In the face of relentless persecution, Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, had led his flock to Illinois. There they had established the town of Nauvoo, which by the mid-1840’s had become the largest city in Illinois with over 15,000 people. . . In June 1844, a mob of non-Mormons broke into the jail where Smith was being held and killed both him and his brother. . .The Mormons abandoned Nauvoo in the spring of 1846 as anti-Mormons pounded the town with cannon, destroying the Great Temple. In a well-coordinated migration, 15,000 Mormons moved in stages to the Great Salt Lake.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 334-335) Many walked all the way and many died along the way, including innocent babes.

Joseph Smith at one time was tarred and feathered by a mob. No jury, no trial, no judge – and they had planned to castrate him, too. On October 27, 1838, the then governor of Missouri issued an “extermination order”: “The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the State if necessary . . .” Far West History (n.d.) Please note that the order called for exterminating “Mormons” making no distinction between men, women and children, and indeed women and children were subject to the extermination order.

In an event known in LDS history as “the Haun’s Mill Massacre”, precipitated by the extermination order, 30 to 40 LDS families were surprised by some 200 to 250 militia. After the smoke cleared, seventeen LDS people lay dead including a ten-year-old boy. Thirteen LDS members were wounded including a woman and a seven-year-old boy. “A few Missourians returned the next day and took plunder.” LDS FAQ (n.d.) No Missouri militiamen were killed but three were wounded. Just a few years earlier, the LDS folk who died that day had been members of other churches - Congregational or Methodist or Baptist or Presbyterian.

In l976, Governor Bond of Missouri officially rescinded the extermination order and presented apologies for the “unfortunate developments” it caused. Quoting from Governor Bond’s Executive Order: “WHEREAS, Governor Boggs’ order clearly contravened the rights to life, liberty, property and religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, as well as the Constitution of the State of Missouri; and . . . Expressing on behalf of all Missourians our deep regret for the injustice and undue suffering rescind Executive Order Number 44 dated October 27, 1838, issued by Governor W. Boggs. . .” Far West History (n.d.) The individuals who harassed, abused, and even murdered Mormons in cold blood were never tried for their crimes.

I read Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s Letter from Birmingham Jail and it really touched my heart. There he was, suffering for the Lord in jail, and these religious leaders with highfalutin titles on the outside wrote an open letter (“A Call for Unity”) in which they criticize King’s tactics and basically blame King for the racial turmoil of the time. Though you can tell King is upset and hurt by the attack – made worse because he’s stuck in jail and can’t confront the religious leaders face-to-face – his response is gentle genius. “I wish you had commended the Negro sit-inners and demonstrators of Birmingham for their sublime courage, their willingness to suffer, and their amazing discipline in the midst of great provocation. One day the South will recognize its real heroes.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 881)

King has a few choice words for the Church, too: “If today’s church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. Every day I meet young people whose disappointment with the church has turned into outright disgust.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 880)

King signs off with “Yours for the cause of Peace and Brotherhood”.

There’s an eerie commonality between what JFK and MLK endured at the hands of the religious bigots of their day and what Mitt Romney is facing today. I hope and pray that Romney will be able to fend off these undeserved attacks from the religious hypocrites with the same grace, dignity and God-inspired resolve displayed by the other two.

A few popular bumper stickers read: “Honk if you love Jesus” and “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” or “Jesus is my co-pilot”. Yet, apparently, these same bumper-sticker Christians are the ones waging war against Mitt Romney’s run for the Presidency solely on the basis of his chosen faith in a Church that bears the name of the Savior of the world.

References

ABC News - 20/20 (2007). Philanthropic donations come from your heart, but where do they end up? Ex-money manager says "enough!" to secretive Christian Ministry spending. Glenn Ruppel & John Stossel. United States: ABC News.

Ayers, E. L., Gould, L. L., Oshinsky, D. M., & Soderlund, J. R. (2004). American Passages - a history of the United States - Volume I: to 1877 (2nd ed.). Belmont, California: Thomson/Wadsworth.

Barnet, S., & Bedau, H. (2005). Letter from Birmingham Jail. Current Issues and Enduring Questions - a guide to critical thinking and argument, with readings (7th ed., pp. 867-882). Boston and New York: Bedford/St. Martin's.

Far West History. (n.d.). The Extermination Order and how it was rescinded. Retrieved April 28, 2007, from http://www.jwha.info/mmff/exorder.htm

Hewitt, H. (2007). A Mormon in the White House? 10 things every American should know about Mitt Romney. Washington, D.C.: Regnery Publishing, Inc.

John F. Kennedy Presidential Library & Museum. (1960, September 12). Address of Senator John F. Kennedy to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://www.jfklibrary.org

Lds Faq. (n.d.). What was the Haun's Mill Massacre? Retrieved April 28-2007, 2004, from Brigham Young University Web Site: http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/view.asp?q=57

Media Matters for America. (2007). Fox News whitewashes evangelical hostility to Romney's faith. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200702280002


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: boggsforgovernor; cuespookymusic; election; lds; mormon; mormons; romney; whitesalamanderblues
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To: Colofornian
Yes, our God is a 3-Personage God (1+1+1=3). But he's also a 3-in-1 Personage God (1x1x1=1)

To put it another way, our God is three "Who's" in one "What." Who is God? Father, Son, and Spirit. What is God? ONE GOD.

Well put. Mormons confuse the "Who" with the "What". That's why when they ask a question about "Jesus praying to Himself", as they put it, as if that somehow 'disproves' the Trinity, all they are doing is revealing their confusion of the Persons and their dividing the indivisible substance of the Deity. There is only 1 God, indivisible, eternal and immutable, the only God who exists and Who says that He knows of no other God.

A radish has the nature of a radish. There is more than 1 radish being with the nature of a radish. A human being has a human nature. There is more than 1 human being with a human nature. With God, though, there is only 1 Being with a Divine nature. There are not 3 (or more) God Beings. The unique nature of this God is a trinuity of 3 Persons (not"3 beings" ). There is none like Him and there will be none after Him. In other words, there is no waiting list to become a God.

Cordially,

2,921 posted on 05/23/2007 10:36:02 AM PDT by Diamond
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To: Colofornian; Elsie; Diamond; colorcountry; greyfoxx39; aMorePerfectUnion; P-Marlowe; Theo; ...
Forgive this intrusion into the excellent Bible study you're offering. May I add the following notation to the Luke 24:32 reference you gave above? ... The timing of the eyes being opened is interesting, regarding just when their bosoms burned as Jesus expounded the scriptures to them, and why He expounded the scriptures to them to show them that He had foretold His resurrection in the Testament they had (the Hebrew texts) and that His being absent from the sepulchre was as it had been written!

Luke 24: 12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.

13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.

14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.

15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.

16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.

17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;

23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.

24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.

25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.

29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them. (And these two still did not realize Whom He was with them!)

30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.

31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

It is useful to see how scripture passages lend meaning by their context and the setting. In this case, Cleopas and his companion were down in the mouth and the stranger seemed unaware of why they were so sad, so they shared their knowledge of the events, without giving their meaning to them since their sadness witnessed of their failed comprehension. THEN Jesus gave them the context in which His empty sepulchre could be understood, opening for them the scriptures whith which they were familiar. But even then their eyes were not opened though they had been given the scriptural context of the events they saw culminating with an empty sepulchre. When Jesus broke bread and blessed it and gave it to them THEN were their eyes opened for they had remembrance of the new covenant He established with them prior to the cross, in His body and blood.

Religions focus upon events without proper context, and built doctrinal edifices for the glory of men. God, in the person of the Holy SPirit, focuses upon the Grace of God in Christ, renewing ... in this case, renewing the minds of Cleopas and his companion!

2,922 posted on 05/23/2007 3:37:07 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: Saundra Duffy

Oh cry me a river!

Mormons so desperately want to be called “Christians” that they are now playing the same hand as the homosexual lobby. Anyone that calls them a cult, and has a concern about their fantasy-based faith and its potential influence is now a bigot and intolerant. This is no different than homosexuals’ accusations against anyone who dares call their sexual behavior perverse.

Nope, I’m not voting for Mitt; mostly because he’s a liberal in a conservative suit, but also because he’s a Mormon. Call me what you like, but I vote my values, and my religious beliefs go into the polls with me.


2,923 posted on 05/23/2007 4:14:35 PM PDT by pjr12345 (I'm a Christian Conservative Republican, NOT a Republican Conservative Christian.)
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To: pjr12345
Mormons so desperately want to be called “Christians” that they are now playing the same hand as the homosexual lobby. Anyone that calls them a cult, and has a concern about their fantasy-based faith and its potential influence is now a bigot and intolerant.

We are seeing that here....coming soon to a TV ad near you.

2,924 posted on 05/23/2007 4:37:58 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Thanks congress and President Bush, I'm feeling very non-multi-culti today!)
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To: MHGinTN

Thank you so much for the passage and for sharing your insights!


2,925 posted on 05/23/2007 9:36:46 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: MHGinTN
Almost 3000 replies and

NOW

I get pinged to this thread!?

No thanks anyway... ;^)

It's getting REAL close to kick the dust of yer feet time in the other one!

2,926 posted on 05/24/2007 5:42:01 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: pjr12345
Oh cry me a river! Mormons so desperately want to be called “Christians” that they are now playing the same hand as the homosexual lobby.

And the old RLDS even changed there name to 'fit in' better!

Community of Christ cofchrist.org

2,927 posted on 05/24/2007 5:44:52 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

DANG!!!

I'm stuck to ANOTHER TarBaby!

2,928 posted on 05/24/2007 5:45:23 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie; NYer; pjr12345; Coleus; Theo; P-Marlowe; Colofornian; dangus; ELS; Alamo-Girl
Not really. I agree, it is getting close to dust clearing time ... it is shocking to come up against such spiritual darkness that even exposition of the scriptures does not penetrate. But there it is, Elsie!

Imagine, two of Jesus’s own disciples, with whom he had broken bread just days before, couldn’t recognize Him when He opened the scriptures to them. Were they too busy wrangling with the possible different meanings they could remember in scripture or from the temple leaders which they felt substantiated their false assumption that He had been defeated with crucifizxion? Isn't that what we're seeing with this cult phenomenon?

It wasn’t until He broke bread and blessed it and gave it to them that they had the darkness lifted! Do ya suppose that is related to the necessity for the Eucharist and Apostolic Authority? The burning in the bosom thingy might be lifted with the body and blood of the LIVING Christ, offered by those in Apostolic Authority. Ya think?

2,929 posted on 05/24/2007 8:20:31 AM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN; Elsie
It wasn’t until He broke bread and blessed it and gave it to them that they had the darkness lifted! Do ya suppose that is related to the necessity for the Eucharist and Apostolic Authority? The burning in the bosom thingy might be lifted with the body and blood of the LIVING Christ, offered by those in Apostolic Authority. Ya think?

No. This burning in the busom thingy will not be lifted through some mystical ritual which non-Christians are specifically prohibited from participating in anyway, lest they eat and drink unto themselves damnation. If you think that giving the Eucharist to non-believers is going to make them open their eyes to the error of their ways, then you need to take another look at the whole ceremony and ritual. It is only for disciples to partake of and not seekers and not unbelievers.

The Holy Spirit will convict these people in due time and in due course. You will not, by your own arguments or by the application of some mystical ritual bring them to the foot of the cross. That is not your job. That is the job of the Holy Spirit and the harder you try to do the Holy Spirit's job, the more frustrated you will become with the results.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. It is the hearing of Word of God and the drawing of Christ unto himself (and nothing else) which will draw a man to Christ. Your best bet, if you wish to be a part of the ministry of the Holy Spirit, is to simply present the Word of God and let the Holy Spirit bring faith. If they are open to the leading of the Holy Spirit, then they will come when he calls. If they are not open, then they will not hear when he calls.

It was not some brilliant argument that brought me out of Mormonism and into a relationship with the true and living Christ. Nor was it some ritual or sacrament. It was the Holy Spirit. Others may have participated in the process, by presenting the Word of God so that I might hear it. They didn't do it by calling me an idiot or saying I was mired is spiritual darkness. Those who are mired in spiritual darkness are often convinced that what they see is light. It is not their fault. You cannot logically convince them that the light that they see is darkness. That is something that requires spiritual discernment and THAT is a gift of God.

Carry on.

2,930 posted on 05/24/2007 8:46:16 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: MHGinTN
Do ya suppose that is related to the necessity for the Eucharist and Apostolic Authority?

NO.

2,931 posted on 05/24/2007 8:46:32 AM PDT by pjr12345 (I'm a Christian Conservative Republican, NOT a Republican Conservative Christian.)
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To: pjr12345; P-Marlowe; Saundra Duffy; Alamo-Girl
I would humbly submit to you both that the very reason Mormonism catches so many milk-level Christians up into their cult of heresies can be traced to the lack of Eucharist in their lives prior to being led astray. Paul warned of this and cautioned believers to 'forsake not the gathering together of yourselves'. I may be in error here (I did not mean the Eucharist to be given to non-saved as a means to bring them to salvation, so I have not made myself clear here; the undercurrent of this exchange discussion has been on the burning in the bosom to verify the hereseies of Mormonism, the presumed veracity of the Book of Mormon to which many spiritually starving Christians fall prey), but my experience with Christians fallen into the cult of Mormonism is that they have been prey because of their drifitng from the spiritual fellowship of fellow believers and failure to be 'fed' on the body and blood of Our Lord.

A study of the Old Testament descriptions of the Temple, the Holy place, will render a comparison of the showbread table to the Word of God found in scriptures which are processed through the mind, not the emotions, not the will, but the mind, and 'be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind'. Keeping up the 'nourishment' for the presence of the Holy Spirit within, is essential to proper functioning of the mind being transformed, and failure to partake of the Eucharist starves the struggling soul/spirit.

2,932 posted on 05/24/2007 9:44:42 AM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN; pjr12345; P-Marlowe; Alamo-Girl

We LDS types take the Sacrament (Communion) every Sunday and it is a wonderful uplifting Spiritual blessing. We use bread and water. If you want to argue about why we drink water instead of WINE or grape juice, well, of course, Mormons don’t drink alcohol so there goes the wine, and grape juice is not always readily available in poor places but water is. We take the Sacramento to remember the sacrifice of Jesus Christ - His Body and Blood - given for us to save us from our sins. Jesus Christ told us to do it to remember Him and His sacrifice on our behalf.

I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is my Savior, Lord, Redeemer and I love Him.


2,933 posted on 05/24/2007 11:46:26 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: MHGinTN; pjr12345; P-Marlowe; Alamo-Girl

Yikes! I typed “Sacramento” when I meant Sacrament in the previous post. Ooops! I probably have Sacramento on my mind because so much goofy stuff happens there that needs to be watched.


2,934 posted on 05/24/2007 11:55:53 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: MHGinTN

bump


2,935 posted on 05/24/2007 12:14:05 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Saundra Duffy; MHGinTN; pjr12345; Alamo-Girl
Mormons don’t drink alcohol so there goes the wine,

Well, I hope you don't drink orange juice or use mouthwash.

Laboratory samplings of commonly consumed fruit juices and sugar-based soft drinks purchased from a supermarket (and tested right from the carton the day they were put on the store shelf) all showed measurable amounts of ethanol, up to 0.1 percent.

So if you want to be consistent, you will not drink any fresh fruit drink or soft drink. Frankly I never understood the LDS idea that you could substitute water for the fruit of the vine. While you might have an argument that you should use grape juice (since it is the fruit of the vine), there is no biblical basis that I can even imagine for using tap water.

Now in that regard, I can't help but notice that the Catholics have solved this problem by removing the wine from the sacrament altogether. So MHG, is it truly a biblical Eucharist if there is no wine???

Do you (MHG) think that so many Catholics might be converting to Mormonism because the Church has refused to give them the whole Eucharist (body and blood)?

Or is the blood superfluous?

2,936 posted on 05/24/2007 12:17:30 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
As an Episcopalian, the question of wine or grape juice is superfluous, but part of what Jesus instituted with His disciples was the blood at the Last Supper(the foreshadowing of the wedding feast to come), and the wine is of this fashion which He started His ministry with at the wedding feast. Besides, He said it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles the man.

I am reminded of the analogies regarding the wine press and the fruit of the vine and the vineyard parables ... Jesus turned water into wine, not wine into water. When the life is in the blood, it isn’t about the water content, it is about the life carrying components.

Transubstantiation might be construed to infer water is fully efficacious in the Eucharist, but then wouldn’t Jesus have changed wine somewhere into water instead of water into wine to complete the wedding festivities?

I am of the school which believes the wedding miracle was the opening of His ministry to reach culmination with Gesthemane. He started His witness to men with water into wine and brought it to a close with sweating as it were great drops of His own blood much the way a winepress crushes out the fluid of the grape for transformation into wine. Then He was crucified for us. Using water in the Eucharist would be rather anemic, not to mention a confusion when baptism in water is in the salvation transformation equation.

2,937 posted on 05/24/2007 1:34:49 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN

I’m just a simple girl, FReeper pal. Grape juice, wine, or water - represents the precious Blood of our Savior which was shed for us sinners. Jesus Christ paid the price. When I used to be a Baptist we had Communion about once a month at an evening service. I am happy that the LDS Church has it every Sunday. I think it’s neat that the Catholics celebrate the eucharist every chance they get.


2,938 posted on 05/24/2007 2:51:55 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: MHGinTN; Saundra Duffy; Elsie; NYer; pjr12345; Coleus; Theo; Colofornian; dangus; ELS; ...
As an Episcopalian, the question of wine or grape juice is superfluous,

Well, I hate to kick a guy when he is down, but the Eucharist is a principle staple of Episcopalian ritual and I suspect that guys like Vicky Gene Robinson take the Eucharist at least every week and it does not appear that taking the Eucharist for him and for millions of other Episcopalians has been in any way effective in keeping him or his church from falling into the gravest of errors.

So when you start arguing that something like an Episcopalian Eucharist "offered by those in Apostolic Authority" might just turn a Mormon from the error of his ways, I have to laugh. Heck apparently a majority of those in your Church who carry with them this so-called "Apostolic Authority" have fallen into apostasy themselves. So how can we expect that those apostates can use their authroized eucharistic ritual to turn a budding Mormon from the error of his ways?

The fact of the matter is that despite the fact that your church gives the Eucharist to its members every week, your church is in just as much of a state of apostasy as the Mormons.

2,939 posted on 05/24/2007 5:07:13 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

Gee! If the Episcopalians are doing it, it must be right!

NOT!

It’s hard to wield moral authority when the guy trying to do it is bunk buddies with your weird Uncle Butch.


2,940 posted on 05/24/2007 5:14:35 PM PDT by pjr12345 (I'm a Christian Conservative Republican, NOT a Republican Conservative Christian.)
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