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They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious Bigotry, alive and well today
Saundra Duffy

Posted on 05/04/2007 5:46:36 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy

They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious bigotry, alive and well today

May 4, 2007 - by Saundra Duffy-Hawkins

“I wouldn’t vote for a Mormon for dogcatcher, much less President of the United States!” There’s a lot of that kind of hateful rhetoric going around since Mitt Romney decided to throw his hat in the ring – as if Mormons are some kind of hideous evil monsters. The loudest anti-Mormon shouts, sad to say, are coming from America’s so-called “Christian right”. How can Mitt Romney hope to get a fair shake in this spiritually polluted atmosphere?

There was another man running for President who faced the same dilemma – John F. Kennedy – only he was the target of anti-CATHOLIC bigotry. In his 1960 speech to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association, JFK said the following: “. . .I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end - where all men and all churches are treated as equal - where man has the same right to attend or not attend the church of his choice - where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind - and where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, at both the lay and pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their words in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood.” John F. Kennedy Library & Museum (Speeches, 1960). By the way, if you listen to the audio version of JFK’s speech, you will hear the hurt and frustration in his voice and the unfair treatment surely must have caused many a sleepless night.

Fast forward to 2007 where JFK might as well have been “whistlin’ Dixie”. The hostility toward Mormons today, in my opinion, is even worse than that suffered by JFK. Although it is said that JFK lost about a million votes to religious intolerance, Romney stands to lose even more if the anti-Mormon evangelicals hang together.

According to Media Matters for America - “. . . a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media” - FOX News is not reporting accurately on the level of evangelical hostility to the Romney run. Media Matters for America points out that among evangelical leaders rejecting Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson (National Day of Prayer and Focus on the Family, respectively), the Southern Baptist Convention (collectively), Pat Robertson (Christian Broadcasting Network), and Dr. D. James Kennedy (Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida). “Among many conservative evangelicals – who comprise a significant part of the Republican base – Mormonism is considered an un-Christian cult.” Media Matters for America (2007)

While stumping in Florida, a man in the audience stood up during the Q&A portion and said the following to Romney: “You, sir, you’re a pretender. You do not know the Lord. You’re a Mormon.” Media Matters for America (2007). This is the kind of un-American, disrespectful treatment Mitt Romney will apparently have to endure throughout the entire campaign – as if just being a Mormon is reason enough to open the floodgates for free flow of pent-up hatred and vindictiveness.

For the record, the Mormon bashers know full well that the official name of Romney’s church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” and the members should rightfully be called “members of the LDS Church” but the words “Mormon” and “Mormonism” have an aura of negativity so they prefer to use the “M” word as if it were dirty.

Less than five minutes cruising around the official LDS website (LDS.org) will show anyone who’s interested that the Church is a Christian organization, with Jesus Christ at the Head. There are no paid clergy – all are volunteers. Humanitarian aid is legendary. Members of the LDS Church believe in strong family values; they are patriotic, they are law-abiding upstanding citizens of their community. Many LDS young men right out of high school go on two-year missions – you know, the guys on bikes – and during their mission they don’t date, read newspapers, go to movies or watch TV; but rather they dedicate two years of their lives to serving others. Many women go on missions as well, and couples, only theirs is 18 months in length but the obligations are basically the same. Most members do not shop or go out to eat on Sundays – reminiscent of the good old days when shops and stores were closed in obedience to the Commandment, “Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy”. If they can help it, LDS Church members do not work on Sundays, either, preferring to spend the day at church and with their families. Church members are encouraged to store up a year’s supply of food and water so they will be able to care for their families in the event of an emergency. The LDS Church believes in self-sufficiency and self-reliance but in the event of a financial hardship the Church distributes food and supplies through their welfare (Bishop’s Storehouse) program. Members of the LDS Church do not drink alcohol nor do they use illicit drugs; they do not drink coffee and tea. A Mormon in good standing, therefore, will not be found in a drunken stupor puking her guts out at 3 a.m. anywhere in the world. Furthermore, members of the church are encouraged to dress modestly, be polite and courteous. And members of the LDS Church are faithful tithe payers. Come on, people, what’s not to love?

So what on earth is their beef, the anti-Mormon zealots? Why is there such disdain for the LDS Church and its members? In Hugh Hewitt’s book, “Mormon in the White House?” he states his thesis that the fierce anti-Mormon sentiment among main-stream Christians stems from one or two or all three of the following factors (in order of importance):

1) “It is just too weird.

2) “A Mormon president will supercharge Mormons’ missionary work.

3) “If there is a Mormon in the White House, Salt Lake City will call the shots, at least on the biggest issues.” Hewitt (2007, p. 221-227)

Hugh Hewitt has written an exquisite book about the Romney campaign and overcoming the “Mormon problem.” It’s a good read and I highly recommend it. Of the three problem points listed in the previous paragraph, Hewitt believes – unless some unforeseen blunder destroys his chances – none of the three is insurmountable for Mitt Romney. (Plus, he has the best hair.)

Well, I’m no Hugh Hewitt, not even close; he’s an icon on the conservative radio talk show circuit. Hewitt could talk circles around me (I’ve seen him in action in Sacramento); he’s brilliant; he’s well educated, well read, no doubt a genius, plus he’s kind of cute. I’m basically a “nobody” – an overweight grandma – but after having researched for this paper, I have come to a totally different conclusion as to why there is such in-your-face angst over Romney’s religion of choice: It’s all about money, power and control (in that order). I think they’re (the evangelical religious bigots, that is) scared half to death and are revving up their attacks, not to save souls, but to save their reputations (which if tarnished would lead to financial ruin).

As I said, all one must do is browse around the LDS official web site to see what the LDS Church believes and stands for. Any reasonable person would conclude that Mormons are not evil monsters at all. In fact, they are God fearing, Christ believing, Holy Ghost following people going about doing good. “You will know them by their fruit” and the LDS has plenty of fruit and they are willing to share.

Earlier, I stated that some high-powered ministries have publicly condemned Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson, the Southern Baptist Convention, Pat Robertson, and Dr. D. James Kennedy – just to name a few. There are hoards of others. Sunday after Sunday, preachers, evangelists, reverends and ministers from all Christian denominations pound the pulpit with anti-Mormon rhetoric. I heard the message loud clear when I was a Baptist and when I tiptoed through evangelical/Pentecostal territories. Was I ever miffed when I later learned for myself the Gospel truth about the LDS Church.

Just think about it, please. If Dr. D. James Kennedy, for example, who wrote the book, The Wolves Among Us, were to admit he’d been wrong in labeling the LDS Church a “cult” that leads unwary ignorant people astray (to hell), what would become of his multi-million-dollar ministry? Suffice it to say, there’s big money to be had by sale of books, tapes, CD’s, videos, and other anti-Mormon propaganda, not to mention speaking engagements and world-wide religious crusades. We’re talking trillions, all told. I realize the anti-Mormon aspect of these ministries is but a small portion of the business, but if the truth came out, that they had been using falsehoods about the LDS Church as a cash cow, their entire empires could tumble.

The ABC News program 20/20 aired on March 23, 2007, exposed the lavish lifestyles of some of the top evangelical preachers – million dollar mansions and personal jets. ABC News - 20/20 (2007) (Again, the LDS Church has no paid clergy.)

It’s nothing new. Severe harassment and persecution has been the lot of the LDS Church since it’s inception in 1820 when a 14-year-old boy named Joseph Smith saw visions and communed with heavenly beings. Rather than discuss the spiritual aspects of the LDS Church, however, let’s stick to facts of history. Taken from a college-level early American history textbook, Joseph Smith, upon experiencing the visions and visitations, believed “that God had work for me to do, and that my name should be for good and evil among all nations, kindreds and tongues.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 292). The textbook continues, “They were met with hostility virtually everywhere they went . . . . As the movement gathered momentum, hundreds of people joined the church; entire congregations of churches of other faiths joined . . .” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 293)

During the dark time of American history when slavery was flourishing and when Native Americans were forced from their lands, the pioneers of the LDS Church also suffered at the hands of unscrupulous politicians, governmental leaders, and angry hate-filled mobs. “In the face of relentless persecution, Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, had led his flock to Illinois. There they had established the town of Nauvoo, which by the mid-1840’s had become the largest city in Illinois with over 15,000 people. . . In June 1844, a mob of non-Mormons broke into the jail where Smith was being held and killed both him and his brother. . .The Mormons abandoned Nauvoo in the spring of 1846 as anti-Mormons pounded the town with cannon, destroying the Great Temple. In a well-coordinated migration, 15,000 Mormons moved in stages to the Great Salt Lake.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 334-335) Many walked all the way and many died along the way, including innocent babes.

Joseph Smith at one time was tarred and feathered by a mob. No jury, no trial, no judge – and they had planned to castrate him, too. On October 27, 1838, the then governor of Missouri issued an “extermination order”: “The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the State if necessary . . .” Far West History (n.d.) Please note that the order called for exterminating “Mormons” making no distinction between men, women and children, and indeed women and children were subject to the extermination order.

In an event known in LDS history as “the Haun’s Mill Massacre”, precipitated by the extermination order, 30 to 40 LDS families were surprised by some 200 to 250 militia. After the smoke cleared, seventeen LDS people lay dead including a ten-year-old boy. Thirteen LDS members were wounded including a woman and a seven-year-old boy. “A few Missourians returned the next day and took plunder.” LDS FAQ (n.d.) No Missouri militiamen were killed but three were wounded. Just a few years earlier, the LDS folk who died that day had been members of other churches - Congregational or Methodist or Baptist or Presbyterian.

In l976, Governor Bond of Missouri officially rescinded the extermination order and presented apologies for the “unfortunate developments” it caused. Quoting from Governor Bond’s Executive Order: “WHEREAS, Governor Boggs’ order clearly contravened the rights to life, liberty, property and religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, as well as the Constitution of the State of Missouri; and . . . Expressing on behalf of all Missourians our deep regret for the injustice and undue suffering rescind Executive Order Number 44 dated October 27, 1838, issued by Governor W. Boggs. . .” Far West History (n.d.) The individuals who harassed, abused, and even murdered Mormons in cold blood were never tried for their crimes.

I read Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s Letter from Birmingham Jail and it really touched my heart. There he was, suffering for the Lord in jail, and these religious leaders with highfalutin titles on the outside wrote an open letter (“A Call for Unity”) in which they criticize King’s tactics and basically blame King for the racial turmoil of the time. Though you can tell King is upset and hurt by the attack – made worse because he’s stuck in jail and can’t confront the religious leaders face-to-face – his response is gentle genius. “I wish you had commended the Negro sit-inners and demonstrators of Birmingham for their sublime courage, their willingness to suffer, and their amazing discipline in the midst of great provocation. One day the South will recognize its real heroes.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 881)

King has a few choice words for the Church, too: “If today’s church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. Every day I meet young people whose disappointment with the church has turned into outright disgust.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 880)

King signs off with “Yours for the cause of Peace and Brotherhood”.

There’s an eerie commonality between what JFK and MLK endured at the hands of the religious bigots of their day and what Mitt Romney is facing today. I hope and pray that Romney will be able to fend off these undeserved attacks from the religious hypocrites with the same grace, dignity and God-inspired resolve displayed by the other two.

A few popular bumper stickers read: “Honk if you love Jesus” and “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” or “Jesus is my co-pilot”. Yet, apparently, these same bumper-sticker Christians are the ones waging war against Mitt Romney’s run for the Presidency solely on the basis of his chosen faith in a Church that bears the name of the Savior of the world.

References

ABC News - 20/20 (2007). Philanthropic donations come from your heart, but where do they end up? Ex-money manager says "enough!" to secretive Christian Ministry spending. Glenn Ruppel & John Stossel. United States: ABC News.

Ayers, E. L., Gould, L. L., Oshinsky, D. M., & Soderlund, J. R. (2004). American Passages - a history of the United States - Volume I: to 1877 (2nd ed.). Belmont, California: Thomson/Wadsworth.

Barnet, S., & Bedau, H. (2005). Letter from Birmingham Jail. Current Issues and Enduring Questions - a guide to critical thinking and argument, with readings (7th ed., pp. 867-882). Boston and New York: Bedford/St. Martin's.

Far West History. (n.d.). The Extermination Order and how it was rescinded. Retrieved April 28, 2007, from http://www.jwha.info/mmff/exorder.htm

Hewitt, H. (2007). A Mormon in the White House? 10 things every American should know about Mitt Romney. Washington, D.C.: Regnery Publishing, Inc.

John F. Kennedy Presidential Library & Museum. (1960, September 12). Address of Senator John F. Kennedy to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://www.jfklibrary.org

Lds Faq. (n.d.). What was the Haun's Mill Massacre? Retrieved April 28-2007, 2004, from Brigham Young University Web Site: http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/view.asp?q=57

Media Matters for America. (2007). Fox News whitewashes evangelical hostility to Romney's faith. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200702280002


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: boggsforgovernor; cuespookymusic; election; lds; mormon; mormons; romney; whitesalamanderblues
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To: Colofornian
I’m guessing by your posts that you are of the Catholic faith. Correct me if I’m wrong. Don’t you believe that unbaptized children who die go to hell or has the Church changed its position on that?

I know that Baptists believe God sends any soul who has not confessed Christ to hell, even if that person never heard the name of Jesus Christ and otherwise lived to the best light and knowledge that he had. Do you believe this also? If not, what remedy is there for the soul of this person or the child mentioned above. Because, God knowing all things future and past, would have created these souls simply to thrust them into the lake of fire and brimstone you define. Is this your God?

2,381 posted on 05/14/2007 4:13:23 PM PDT by DanielLongo (Don't tread on me)
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To: MHGinTN; DelphiUser

“Strike one ...”

Meaning...?

Frankly, DU’s post was nothing but frank and clear. That you interpreted that as arrogance, I don’t understand. But, it has been a pattern for you, of late. Am I to understand that you are fresh out of logical arguments? Somehow, I doubt that.


2,382 posted on 05/14/2007 4:24:02 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: MHGinTN

***** See what I mean, the arrogance and condescension are dripping from the screen with that one.

I heard no arrogance or condescension in post #2375. I heard a call to substantiate your claims.
Perhaps the arrogance and condescension you hear comes from within your heart. Perhaps the board you see in DelphiUser eye is nothing but the reflection of the sliver in your own.

I don’t know...
This much I do know, by the words you have posted the constant attacks, regardless of their validity, and incessant finger pointing you are struggling with your own Christianity.

I will continue to prayed for you. May we all treat others in the way we would like to be treated. Even if the other guy started it.


2,383 posted on 05/14/2007 4:28:12 PM PDT by Truth-Miner (The Child in us desires Truth to bend to our perspective, may we all be Adults.)
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To: Colofornian
Hey, we have more in common here than you think. I also find these other non-canonized versions amusing, too!!! :)

That would be why I pinged you, Grin. As to the different versions as you well know (because I remember having this conversation with you before) Story tellers often tell a story defiantly to different audiences, feed back from the audience, age and maturity level of the audience, and the general atmosphere before the story was begun often color how a story is told or a speech is given.

Especially another version from Joseph Smith's own diary, written by his own hand, and then also the 1841 JS version that he wrote in 1841 to John Wentworth, editor of the Chicago Democrat.

Lets see, the diary had several versions with which Joseph expressed dissatisfaction, which is why he kept writing versions of it, so he is not allowed to wordsmith his writings? LOL! I end up rewriting my posts at least three times just for typos, and they still slip through!

The 1841 version was penned by Orson Pratt, but when Joseph saw it was being published (it was published in England, so it took awhile for him to see a copy), which he corrected in the Wentworth letter.

Then still being unhappy, he updated that and had it published in the Times and Seasons with more background history, and a prelude, much the way Joseph smith history is today.

Shortly before his death, he was asked to update the account with anything more he could remember, and correcting several grammatical mistakes and adding detail, he did so.

Joseph Smith went to his death knowing he would be killed declaring it foe everyone when he was taken a way “I go to like a lamb to the slaughter” knowing the whole time if he would just recant his testimony they would let him live.

He did not recant, he dare not for he knew that God would not forgive him for it.

What do the anti’s on this forum risk to call him a liar?

Nothing…

The difference is stark

BTW, why do you find these versions amusing? And why do you reduce one he dictated to F.G. Williams as mere "hearsay." (Can we throw out as suspect everything else JS dictated?...Boy, that would sure be a chunk of material, wouldn't it?)

Without a link, everything, that is not first hand, is hearsay; I was not even sure which version he was talking about. As for finding it amusing, I find the tempest in a teapot that people keep trying to stir up over Mitt Romney running for president amusing.

Look at it this way, A Mormon who I am not supporting (Go Fred Thompson) keeps getting attacked by people who make it their hobby to attack anything Mormon, and I end up defending the guy I am not supporting because they are attacking my faith to try to impugn him (I wish you were attacking his politics), now Mitt is being attacked because the founder of his religion took several stabs at documenting something and was never happy with any of his attempts until the one he authorized to be printed was published. To me that is funny, you guys are so far past the mark here attacking Mitt it is a wonder you think you have any credibility here at all!

You asked why I was amused, well, that’s Why!

ROTFLOL Oh yeah, so this post is not hearsay, you could have found this all out on LDS.org here : Joseph Smith’s Testimony of the First Vision
2,384 posted on 05/14/2007 4:30:28 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: tantiboh; Saundra Duffy

That I am holding off from addressing the heresies of Mormonism for now on this thread should not be mischaracterized as ‘out of logical arguments.’ That baiting comment by you isn’t going to goad me into address the poster directly with a ping. Arguing with arrogant, ridiculing, condescending posters is not profitable for readers and detracts from reasoning about the candidates, despite what Saundra tried to accomplish with this thread/essay.


2,385 posted on 05/14/2007 4:30:40 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: Truth-Miner; JCEccles

Yeah, you and your buddy JCEccles are using the same strategy to assist your fellows. Enjoy ...


2,386 posted on 05/14/2007 4:33:41 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN; JCEccles

I don’t know JCEccles. I’ve only read one of his/her posts.

I don’t take “sides”.

I look for truth regardless of where it comes from.

Despite my human side I do my best to speak truth.
I said “perhaps” and “I do not know”.
I only know there is a pattern to your posts.

You don’t have to accept my “advice” or “help” I gave it freely and I don’t demand that you accept it. I apologize for any discomfort you feel.

Your issues are yours.

I’ll go deal with mine.


2,387 posted on 05/14/2007 5:16:32 PM PDT by Truth-Miner (The Child in us desires Truth to bend to our perspective, may we all be Adults.)
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To: Truth-Miner

I feel no discomfort at your post or others posts ... and I’m not ‘sitting in my pajamas typing on the net.’ [Look back at your friend’s post you say was not arrogant and condescending. This wagon circling behavior is beginning to reveal quite a bit about how Mormonism apologists are going to deal with dnc strategies to marginalize Romney should he get the nomination.]


2,388 posted on 05/14/2007 5:28:37 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN

“and I’m not ‘sitting in my pajamas typing on the net.’”

See, this is a perfect example of how you are choosing to take offense where none is warranted. Bloggers, participants in forums, all kinds of users of the new media outlet we call the Internet are regular Joe’s like me and you, who sit at home in their PJ’s - either metaphorical or literal - participating in democracy.

I do the same. The difference is, you are “sitting in your PJ’s” attacking what I hold dear. I am “sitting in my PJ’s” defending what I hold dear.

I pray for you MHG, because it seems to me that you have some sort of pent-up anger or frustration that causes you to lash out - to take insult and offense, and to assume the worst in others. This goes beyond our theological disagreements. If a person is determined to see a particular group of people as “arrogant” and “condescending,” it’s so much easier to find examples of such.

Until a person finds a way to take care of such a dilemma, real happiness is much harder to find. Such a person spends their time insulted and bitter.


2,389 posted on 05/14/2007 5:37:52 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: tantiboh

And you aren’t likely to be capable of seeing the condescension in your post. So be it. Strike two ... third strike and we no longer have a truce, tantiboh.


2,390 posted on 05/14/2007 5:45:29 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: tantiboh; MHGinTN; greyfoxx39
I pray for you MHG, because it seems to me that you have some sort of pent-up anger or frustration that causes you to lash out - to take insult and offense, and to assume the worst in others. This goes beyond our theological disagreements. If a person is determined to see a particular group of people as “arrogant” and “condescending,” it’s so much easier to find examples of such.

This is the most arrogant and self-serving post I have ever seen on FR. I have read many threads on the Religion board here and MHGinTN is one of the foremost authority, kindest, and best read posters on protestant Christianity here.

That you would personally attack someone as good and as honest as MHGnTN tells me a great deal about you. You are an insecure, young whippersnapper, and could learn a great deal from my dear friend.

He started out as a Romney defender, and posted his opinion that Romney's candidacy should not be about religion. Then he met this group of Mormonism "defenders" on FreeRepublic. It is you, and those like you, who totally changed his mind.

I'm sorry that some of us have had to muddy our feet in this fight. We don't think the Romney candidacy is good for our party. It is our right to vehemently defend our position.

2,391 posted on 05/14/2007 5:56:46 PM PDT by colorcountry (The smiley lies.)
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To: TheBattman

I am a Mormon for Fred!


2,392 posted on 05/14/2007 5:57:56 PM PDT by Enough_Deceit (Confessions of a middle-aged drama queen. ;-))
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To: colorcountry; tantiboh; MHGinTN
MHGinTN is one of the foremost authority, kindest, and best read posters on protestant Christianity here.

I have seen posts from him to you, where he has bent over backward to try and have a civil discussion with you. You owe him a very large apology IMO>

2,393 posted on 05/14/2007 6:01:28 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Fred sez "I'm not interested in being the tallest midget in the room.." RUN FRED RUN!)
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To: colorcountry; MHGinTN; DelphiUser

“That you would personally attack someone as good and as honest as MHGnTN tells me a great deal about you.”

So be it, CC; I’ve read many places where you have stated that you’re praying for another. My attacks were not designed to be personal; but they are my observations of MHG’s behavior in the last few days. He has used the terms “arrogant” and “condescending” many times in the last few days, and this has been meant as a substantive response to those whom he has so labeled.

“You are an insecure, young whippersnapper, and could learn a great deal from my dear friend.”

Insecure? I’m not sure; time will tell, I suppose. Young? Certainly, though such a trait does have desirable qualities to go with the undesirable, including a sense of idealism. Whippersnapper? Could be; I’ve yet to prove myself in the world, though I do have high hopes. Learn much from MHG? I’m sure I could; indeed, I already have. He’s cogent and intelligent. Still, if he desires to take offense, there is little I can do to stop him; I’m certain we would have me do nothing less than speak my mind - to do otherwise would be duplicitous. He often accuses us of “spinning;” well, when I am honest and forthright in my observations, he accuses me of “arrogance.” So be it; it’s not my lookout.

“He started out as a Romney defender, and posted his opinion that Romney’s candidacy should not be about religion.”

That may have been before I was paying attention; in that case, my thanks go out to him.

“It is you, and those like you, who totally changed his mind.”

No, I’m afraid not. It has been his thesis for some time that Romney’s weakness is that the press, etc. will pillory his religion and thereby split the Republican base. That religion did not change since this discussion began. If his position has shifted, then it has been other forces that did it.

“I’m sorry that some of us have had to muddy our feet in this fight.”

Me, too. I’d much rather not discuss my faith in such a forum.

“We don’t think the Romney candidacy is good for our party.”

That’s fine; you’re certainly welcome to the position. In many ways, I agree with you. But, then, that hasn’t been the source of contention, has it?

“It is our right to vehemently defend our position.”

Indeed; just as it is my right to defend my faith. None of us is perfect, and we’ve all stepped on toes along the way. That’s why we have charity.


2,394 posted on 05/14/2007 6:29:17 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: colorcountry

It isn’t just that a Romney candidacy isn’t good for our party. It isn’t good for our nation. Only those who can see the bigger picture of politics understand why.


2,395 posted on 05/14/2007 6:32:33 PM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife (Life isn't fair. It's just fairer than death, that's all.--William Goldman)
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To: MHGinTN

My friend, if you are determined to find reasons to annul our “truce,” then you will find them. There’s nothing I can do or say to prevent that, except to be silent. I will not do that.

I respect you and your positions; nevertheless, I do not see that respect reciprocated toward others when they disagree with you. In my clumsy fashion, I called you out on it. Certainly, my posts today have not been written in the spirit of love; and I regret the way I presented myself, for it was not done in the spirit of He whom I claim to represent. I struggle to be better day by day, just as you do.

Still, I stand by the point I tried to make through them. If my observations were incorrect, then, please, correct me. I am old enough to recognize my ignorance in many things.


2,396 posted on 05/14/2007 6:34:58 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: Pan_Yans Wife

I agree.

It is in God’s hands. We’ll get the leader we deserve. I pray it’s Duncan Hunter or Fred Thompson.


2,397 posted on 05/14/2007 6:38:04 PM PDT by colorcountry (The smiley lies.)
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To: greyfoxx39; MHGinTN

“I have seen posts from him to you, where he has bent over backward to try and have a civil discussion with you. You owe him a very large apology IMO”

Indeed, that is true; I have done likewise for him. Today, I failed; and I have addressed this.


2,398 posted on 05/14/2007 6:38:47 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: tantiboh; MHGinTN; colorcountry

You are a bit presumptuous, tantiboh.

Who are you to state which positions changed MGHinTN’s mind?

There are a mulitude of points being discussed on the various Romney threads.

Have you monitored each and every thread, followed the discussions from the beginning until the end, took notes of every comment MGHinTn has made, opened up a dialogue with him and asked him to answer your questions regarding his change of heart?

To state that you have, is pure folly. You aren’t coming off as well with your recent posts. You are moving the argument from a factual basis to a personal one. That is a weak position.


2,399 posted on 05/14/2007 6:40:58 PM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife (Life isn't fair. It's just fairer than death, that's all.--William Goldman)
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To: Pan_Yans Wife; MHGinTN

“Have you monitored each and every thread, followed the discussions from the beginning until the end, took notes of every comment MGHinTn has made, opened up a dialogue with him and asked him to answer your questions regarding his change of heart?”

Of course not. Have you?

If I am wrong, MHG is free to correct me.


2,400 posted on 05/14/2007 7:00:58 PM PDT by tantiboh
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