They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious Bigotry, alive and well today

Saundra Duffy

[Saundra Duffy]

They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious bigotry, alive and well today

May 4, 2007 - by Saundra Duffy-Hawkins

“I wouldn’t vote for a Mormon for dogcatcher, much less President of the United States!” There’s a lot of that kind of hateful rhetoric going around since Mitt Romney decided to throw his hat in the ring – as if Mormons are some kind of hideous evil monsters. The loudest anti-Mormon shouts, sad to say, are coming from America’s so-called “Christian right”. How can Mitt Romney hope to get a fair shake in this spiritually polluted atmosphere?

There was another man running for President who faced the same dilemma – John F. Kennedy – only he was the target of anti-CATHOLIC bigotry. In his 1960 speech to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association, JFK said the following: “. . .I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end - where all men and all churches are treated as equal - where man has the same right to attend or not attend the church of his choice - where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind - and where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, at both the lay and pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their words in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood.” John F. Kennedy Library & Museum (Speeches, 1960). By the way, if you listen to the audio version of JFK’s speech, you will hear the hurt and frustration in his voice and the unfair treatment surely must have caused many a sleepless night.

Fast forward to 2007 where JFK might as well have been “whistlin’ Dixie”. The hostility toward Mormons today, in my opinion, is even worse than that suffered by JFK. Although it is said that JFK lost about a million votes to religious intolerance, Romney stands to lose even more if the anti-Mormon evangelicals hang together.

According to Media Matters for America - “. . . a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media” - FOX News is not reporting accurately on the level of evangelical hostility to the Romney run. Media Matters for America points out that among evangelical leaders rejecting Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson (National Day of Prayer and Focus on the Family, respectively), the Southern Baptist Convention (collectively), Pat Robertson (Christian Broadcasting Network), and Dr. D. James Kennedy (Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida). “Among many conservative evangelicals – who comprise a significant part of the Republican base – Mormonism is considered an un-Christian cult.” Media Matters for America (2007)

While stumping in Florida, a man in the audience stood up during the Q&A portion and said the following to Romney: “You, sir, you’re a pretender. You do not know the Lord. You’re a Mormon.” Media Matters for America (2007). This is the kind of un-American, disrespectful treatment Mitt Romney will apparently have to endure throughout the entire campaign – as if just being a Mormon is reason enough to open the floodgates for free flow of pent-up hatred and vindictiveness.

For the record, the Mormon bashers know full well that the official name of Romney’s church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” and the members should rightfully be called “members of the LDS Church” but the words “Mormon” and “Mormonism” have an aura of negativity so they prefer to use the “M” word as if it were dirty.

Less than five minutes cruising around the official LDS website (LDS.org) will show anyone who’s interested that the Church is a Christian organization, with Jesus Christ at the Head. There are no paid clergy – all are volunteers. Humanitarian aid is legendary. Members of the LDS Church believe in strong family values; they are patriotic, they are law-abiding upstanding citizens of their community. Many LDS young men right out of high school go on two-year missions – you know, the guys on bikes – and during their mission they don’t date, read newspapers, go to movies or watch TV; but rather they dedicate two years of their lives to serving others. Many women go on missions as well, and couples, only theirs is 18 months in length but the obligations are basically the same. Most members do not shop or go out to eat on Sundays – reminiscent of the good old days when shops and stores were closed in obedience to the Commandment, “Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy”. If they can help it, LDS Church members do not work on Sundays, either, preferring to spend the day at church and with their families. Church members are encouraged to store up a year’s supply of food and water so they will be able to care for their families in the event of an emergency. The LDS Church believes in self-sufficiency and self-reliance but in the event of a financial hardship the Church distributes food and supplies through their welfare (Bishop’s Storehouse) program. Members of the LDS Church do not drink alcohol nor do they use illicit drugs; they do not drink coffee and tea. A Mormon in good standing, therefore, will not be found in a drunken stupor puking her guts out at 3 a.m. anywhere in the world. Furthermore, members of the church are encouraged to dress modestly, be polite and courteous. And members of the LDS Church are faithful tithe payers. Come on, people, what’s not to love?

So what on earth is their beef, the anti-Mormon zealots? Why is there such disdain for the LDS Church and its members? In Hugh Hewitt’s book, “Mormon in the White House?” he states his thesis that the fierce anti-Mormon sentiment among main-stream Christians stems from one or two or all three of the following factors (in order of importance):

1) “It is just too weird.

2) “A Mormon president will supercharge Mormons’ missionary work.

3) “If there is a Mormon in the White House, Salt Lake City will call the shots, at least on the biggest issues.” Hewitt (2007, p. 221-227)

Hugh Hewitt has written an exquisite book about the Romney campaign and overcoming the “Mormon problem.” It’s a good read and I highly recommend it. Of the three problem points listed in the previous paragraph, Hewitt believes – unless some unforeseen blunder destroys his chances – none of the three is insurmountable for Mitt Romney. (Plus, he has the best hair.)

Well, I’m no Hugh Hewitt, not even close; he’s an icon on the conservative radio talk show circuit. Hewitt could talk circles around me (I’ve seen him in action in Sacramento); he’s brilliant; he’s well educated, well read, no doubt a genius, plus he’s kind of cute. I’m basically a “nobody” – an overweight grandma – but after having researched for this paper, I have come to a totally different conclusion as to why there is such in-your-face angst over Romney’s religion of choice: It’s all about money, power and control (in that order). I think they’re (the evangelical religious bigots, that is) scared half to death and are revving up their attacks, not to save souls, but to save their reputations (which if tarnished would lead to financial ruin).

As I said, all one must do is browse around the LDS official web site to see what the LDS Church believes and stands for. Any reasonable person would conclude that Mormons are not evil monsters at all. In fact, they are God fearing, Christ believing, Holy Ghost following people going about doing good. “You will know them by their fruit” and the LDS has plenty of fruit and they are willing to share.

Earlier, I stated that some high-powered ministries have publicly condemned Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson, the Southern Baptist Convention, Pat Robertson, and Dr. D. James Kennedy – just to name a few. There are hoards of others. Sunday after Sunday, preachers, evangelists, reverends and ministers from all Christian denominations pound the pulpit with anti-Mormon rhetoric. I heard the message loud clear when I was a Baptist and when I tiptoed through evangelical/Pentecostal territories. Was I ever miffed when I later learned for myself the Gospel truth about the LDS Church.

Just think about it, please. If Dr. D. James Kennedy, for example, who wrote the book, The Wolves Among Us, were to admit he’d been wrong in labeling the LDS Church a “cult” that leads unwary ignorant people astray (to hell), what would become of his multi-million-dollar ministry? Suffice it to say, there’s big money to be had by sale of books, tapes, CD’s, videos, and other anti-Mormon propaganda, not to mention speaking engagements and world-wide religious crusades. We’re talking trillions, all told. I realize the anti-Mormon aspect of these ministries is but a small portion of the business, but if the truth came out, that they had been using falsehoods about the LDS Church as a cash cow, their entire empires could tumble.

The ABC News program 20/20 aired on March 23, 2007, exposed the lavish lifestyles of some of the top evangelical preachers – million dollar mansions and personal jets. ABC News - 20/20 (2007) (Again, the LDS Church has no paid clergy.)

It’s nothing new. Severe harassment and persecution has been the lot of the LDS Church since it’s inception in 1820 when a 14-year-old boy named Joseph Smith saw visions and communed with heavenly beings. Rather than discuss the spiritual aspects of the LDS Church, however, let’s stick to facts of history. Taken from a college-level early American history textbook, Joseph Smith, upon experiencing the visions and visitations, believed “that God had work for me to do, and that my name should be for good and evil among all nations, kindreds and tongues.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 292). The textbook continues, “They were met with hostility virtually everywhere they went . . . . As the movement gathered momentum, hundreds of people joined the church; entire congregations of churches of other faiths joined . . .” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 293)

During the dark time of American history when slavery was flourishing and when Native Americans were forced from their lands, the pioneers of the LDS Church also suffered at the hands of unscrupulous politicians, governmental leaders, and angry hate-filled mobs. “In the face of relentless persecution, Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, had led his flock to Illinois. There they had established the town of Nauvoo, which by the mid-1840’s had become the largest city in Illinois with over 15,000 people. . . In June 1844, a mob of non-Mormons broke into the jail where Smith was being held and killed both him and his brother. . .The Mormons abandoned Nauvoo in the spring of 1846 as anti-Mormons pounded the town with cannon, destroying the Great Temple. In a well-coordinated migration, 15,000 Mormons moved in stages to the Great Salt Lake.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 334-335) Many walked all the way and many died along the way, including innocent babes.

Joseph Smith at one time was tarred and feathered by a mob. No jury, no trial, no judge – and they had planned to castrate him, too. On October 27, 1838, the then governor of Missouri issued an “extermination order”: “The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the State if necessary . . .” Far West History (n.d.) Please note that the order called for exterminating “Mormons” making no distinction between men, women and children, and indeed women and children were subject to the extermination order.

In an event known in LDS history as “the Haun’s Mill Massacre”, precipitated by the extermination order, 30 to 40 LDS families were surprised by some 200 to 250 militia. After the smoke cleared, seventeen LDS people lay dead including a ten-year-old boy. Thirteen LDS members were wounded including a woman and a seven-year-old boy. “A few Missourians returned the next day and took plunder.” LDS FAQ (n.d.) No Missouri militiamen were killed but three were wounded. Just a few years earlier, the LDS folk who died that day had been members of other churches - Congregational or Methodist or Baptist or Presbyterian.

In l976, Governor Bond of Missouri officially rescinded the extermination order and presented apologies for the “unfortunate developments” it caused. Quoting from Governor Bond’s Executive Order: “WHEREAS, Governor Boggs’ order clearly contravened the rights to life, liberty, property and religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, as well as the Constitution of the State of Missouri; and . . . Expressing on behalf of all Missourians our deep regret for the injustice and undue suffering rescind Executive Order Number 44 dated October 27, 1838, issued by Governor W. Boggs. . .” Far West History (n.d.) The individuals who harassed, abused, and even murdered Mormons in cold blood were never tried for their crimes.

I read Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s Letter from Birmingham Jail and it really touched my heart. There he was, suffering for the Lord in jail, and these religious leaders with highfalutin titles on the outside wrote an open letter (“A Call for Unity”) in which they criticize King’s tactics and basically blame King for the racial turmoil of the time. Though you can tell King is upset and hurt by the attack – made worse because he’s stuck in jail and can’t confront the religious leaders face-to-face – his response is gentle genius. “I wish you had commended the Negro sit-inners and demonstrators of Birmingham for their sublime courage, their willingness to suffer, and their amazing discipline in the midst of great provocation. One day the South will recognize its real heroes.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 881)

King has a few choice words for the Church, too: “If today’s church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. Every day I meet young people whose disappointment with the church has turned into outright disgust.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 880)

King signs off with “Yours for the cause of Peace and Brotherhood”.

There’s an eerie commonality between what JFK and MLK endured at the hands of the religious bigots of their day and what Mitt Romney is facing today. I hope and pray that Romney will be able to fend off these undeserved attacks from the religious hypocrites with the same grace, dignity and God-inspired resolve displayed by the other two.

A few popular bumper stickers read: “Honk if you love Jesus” and “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” or “Jesus is my co-pilot”. Yet, apparently, these same bumper-sticker Christians are the ones waging war against Mitt Romney’s run for the Presidency solely on the basis of his chosen faith in a Church that bears the name of the Savior of the world.

References

ABC News - 20/20 (2007). Philanthropic donations come from your heart, but where do they end up? Ex-money manager says "enough!" to secretive Christian Ministry spending. Glenn Ruppel & John Stossel. United States: ABC News.

Ayers, E. L., Gould, L. L., Oshinsky, D. M., & Soderlund, J. R. (2004). American Passages - a history of the United States - Volume I: to 1877 (2nd ed.). Belmont, California: Thomson/Wadsworth.

Barnet, S., & Bedau, H. (2005). Letter from Birmingham Jail. Current Issues and Enduring Questions - a guide to critical thinking and argument, with readings (7th ed., pp. 867-882). Boston and New York: Bedford/St. Martin's.

Far West History. (n.d.). The Extermination Order and how it was rescinded. Retrieved April 28, 2007, from http://www.jwha.info/mmff/exorder.htm

Hewitt, H. (2007). A Mormon in the White House? 10 things every American should know about Mitt Romney. Washington, D.C.: Regnery Publishing, Inc.

John F. Kennedy Presidential Library & Museum. (1960, September 12). Address of Senator John F. Kennedy to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://www.jfklibrary.org

Lds Faq. (n.d.). What was the Haun's Mill Massacre? Retrieved April 28-2007, 2004, from Brigham Young University Web Site: http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/view.asp?q=57

Media Matters for America. (2007). Fox News whitewashes evangelical hostility to Romney's faith. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200702280002

[Utah Binger]

Just took my water turn at 5:30 AM from the ditch the Orderville Mormon commies built in 1880.

[colorcountry]

That is a pretty ditch. The sunrise must be beautiful.

Wasn’t Orderville one of the longest lived socialist communities in Utah? I’ve heard it was the most successful (probably because when you divide ‘nothing’ up equally, it still equals ‘nothing.’)

But too, I believe Orderville must have had more than its fair share of pious Mormonanity. These “new order” Mormons of today, just don’t know what it used to be like, do they?

[Utah Binger]

The United Order here lasted for about ten years. It was fine and glorious for the first generation. Then, when only the first born could inherit shares in the "order" it caused other siblings to seek other possibilities. It was also the same with polygamy. All the young men were sent out on missions leaving all the girls to the old men. When they returned from their missions, the crops of wives had already been harvested. I believe more than anything that is what caused the failure of American Communism in the west. A shortage of women.

BTW, the mayor of Orderville and his family have restored the last standing building and have opened a soup and sandwich place in the old ZCMI building. Orderville was always known as "Soup Town". We approached them a few years ago with our concerns about historic preservation after our place was put on the National Register. I'm glad they listened and are finally taking pride in the history of Orderville. My words were: Be proud of the history and don't proselyte.

[Osage Orange]

I read your post differently...

Sorry...

[Diamond]

The first vision’s message was very powerful and like many of gods messages to man it has many meanings. I will list just a few of the obvious messages in this Vision.

1. The trinity is a false doctrine. (because Joseph smith saw two personages who were distinct from each other.)

-------------------------------------------

The first vision's message...

To which of Joesph Smith's accounts of the first vision do you refer; the suppressed 1832 account where he only mentions Jesus appearing to him or the 1835 account which mentions "angels" but not God or Jesus?

...because Joseph Smith saw...

You believe in the credibility of a man who said:

"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go."
(History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)

...two personages who were distinct from each other.

A flesh and bone Father, or a Father who is a personage of spirit?

Written by Joseph Smith in 1835, why was the following deleted in 1921?

There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things - by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible; whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space - They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fullness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made, or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man, or, rather, man was formed after his likeness, and in his image;... and is called the Son because of the flesh
(Lectures on Faith, Lecture Fifth, p. 53).

Since that was written in 1835 why does LDS today teach that that Joseph Smith discovered that both God the Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bone when he saw them in his First Vision in 1820, and why did the LDS delete the passage in 1921?

The trinity was the creation of a pagan emperor named Constantine, who called the frist council at Nicea and with a combination of bribes, and threats got the church to agree on a creed that all of Rome could unite behind.

Why would anyone be inclined to accept a characterization of ancient church history from people who can't even get their own comparatively recent history straight?

Cordially,

[MHGinTN]

Uh oh, NOW YOU’VE DONE IT! The poster has raised the issue of the trinity being a fabrication/creation of Constantine because the poster must sow seeds of doubt in Orthodox Christianity (but the poster swears he never attacks Christianity so we ought not highlight the heresies in Mormonism) in an effort to give credibility to the fabrications of Joe and company. Put your padded ear plugs on for the ridicule, condescension, and arrogant smothering of your offering. But personally, I like you beautiful three verse offering which highlights that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one as shown with the resurrection.

[sevenbak]

Thanks for posting that, sevenbak. Since people who are LDS are supposed Kool Aid drinkers, one must conclude that we (including Mitt Romney) would follow our own scriptures when it comes to the role of religion in government. This clearly spells it out for the whole world to see. I’ve always been amazed that a board created to promote conservatism in America focuses so much on the individual religious differences of its members—even though they all hold the same general political beliefs.

I agree, this site is called FreeRepublic.com, not MyJesusisbetterthanyourJesusRepublic.com

[sevenbak]

Speaking of Communism. MHGinTN, did you know that God’s Kingdom on earth will be a socialistic communism? Well, at least that’s what Brigham Young taught, and implemented. Yeppers, Utah had communism back in the 1800’s, That’s where America came up with it’s Anti-Trust laws of the early 1900’s. To abolish the financial hold of the mormon-inspired monopolies of Utah. Just thought I throw in that history. The Dems will use this too, against Romney.

This is such a load of curelom droppings! ;-)

The idea that the law of consecration is anything like communism is preposterous. The two principles both in design and practice are as far apart as the bible and the satanic bible. You, as a former member, know the principle of “opposition on all things”. (2 Nephi 2:11) God’s gifts and ways have always been counterfeited by evil forces. I suppose you would call the early Christians Communists too?

Acts 4:32

And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

Acts 2:44

And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

Further, former LDS president, Ezra Taft Benson, who also served on Eisenhower’s cabinet for 8 years, was a fierce opponent of the evils of Communism. Here is a great talk on the subject, I’ve clipped a little of it for you.

________________________________________________________________________________

Communism introduced into the world a substitute for true religion. It is a counterfeit of the gospel plan. The false prophets of Communism predict a utopian society. This, they proclaim, will only be brought about as capitalism and free enterprise are overthrown, private property abolished, the family as a social unit eliminated, all classes abolished, all governments overthrown, and a communal ownership of property in a classless, stateless society established.

Since 1917 this godless counterfeit to the gospel has made tremendous progress toward its objective of world domination.

Today, we are in a battle for the bodies and souls of man. It is a battle between two opposing systems: freedom and slavery, Christ and anti-Christ. The struggle is more momentous than a decade ago, yet today the conventional wisdom says, “You must learn to live with Communism and to give up your ideas about national sovereignty.” Tell that to the millions—yes, the scores of millions—who have met death or imprisonment under the tyranny of Communism! Such would be the death knell of freedom and all we hold dear. God must ever have a free people to prosper His work and bring about Zion.

I am a witness to nations and people deprived of their freedom. I was there. I watched that great Iron Curtain drop around nations which formerly had prized their freedom—good people. I was aghast as these were written off by the stroke of a pen. I saw Poland abandoned by nations with a heritage of freedom—the United States and Great Britain.

I was in Warsaw in June of 1946. I shared a room with seven other men in the Polonia Hotel, the only hotel even partially intact in the great city of Warsaw. Our ambassador, Bliss Lane, had his office in part of the building. He was so saddened that he resigned and wrote the book I Saw Poland Betrayed, which detailed the failure of the United States and England to keep their promise that the Poles would have a free election after the war.

I saw firsthand our great nation stand by at the time of the Hungarian revolution—when “freedom fighters” with bare hands and stones resisted bullets, tanks, and artillery. I confess I was ashamed at the response of my country—a nation which I believe the Lord intended to be an ensign of freedom to all others. Freedom did not die that day (23 October 1956) for Hungary alone. Hope died for many in other captive nations and has only recently been somewhat revived by courageous men willing to speak against oppression.

Since that day, I have seen the Soviet Union, under its godless leaders, spread its ideology throughout the world. Every stratagem is used—trade, war, revolution, violence, hate, detente, and immorality—to accomplish its purposes. Many nations are now under its oppressive control. Over one billion people—one-fourth of the population of the world—have now lost their freedom and are under Communist domination. We seem to forget that the great objective of Communism is still world domination and control, which means the surrender of our freedom—your freedom—our sovereignty.

On 3 July 1936, the First Presidency published this warning to Church members:

“Communism is not a political party nor a political plan under the Constitution; it is a system of government that is the opposite of our Constitutional government. …

“Since Communism, established, would destroy our American Constitutional government, to support Communism is treasonable to our free institutions, and no patriotic American citizen may become either a Communist or supporter of Communism. …

“We call upon all Church members completely to eschew [shun] Communism. The safety of our divinely inspired Constitutional government and the welfare of our Church imperatively demand that Communism shall have no place in America” (signed: Heber J. Grant, J. Reuben Clark, Jr., David O. McKay, The First Presidency, in Deseret News, 3 July 1936; italics added).

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=3d7f615b01a6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

[MHGinTN]

That was a great speech by Benson. Don’t you long for the days when speeches were so clear and free from policial correctness? Romney would make a big leap for his candidacy if he would make a speech like that, free of influences of political correctness.

[sevenbak]

He was a fierce opponent of communism. Go to LDS.org and search communism and Benson, I think you will like what you find there.

[sevenbak]

Oh, and I think he will too, if he gets the nomination, I think he will campaign against her with a strong constitutional freedom platform that clearly shows the difference between conservative freedoms and Socialist Hillaryism.

[Diamond]

...beautiful three verse offering which highlights that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one as shown with the resurrection.

Here are some more:

3) Who Searches Minds and Hearts?

*JEREMIAH 17:10 I the Lord search the heart, {I} try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, {and} according to the fruit of his doings.

<>1 CORINTHIANS 2:10 But God hath revealed {them} unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

+REVELATION 2:23 . . . I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Cordially,

[MHGinTN]

Keep 'em coming. I love connections. My favorite is from Ian Thomas, of Torchbearer Fellowship: Many are called, but few are chosen; Faithful is He that calleth you, for He will also do it. Of the many called, why are so few chosen? ... Because so few will let Him do it.

[DelphiUser]

The poster has raised the issue of the trinity being a fabrication/creation of Constantine because the poster must sow seeds of doubt in Orthodox Christianity (but the poster swears he never attacks Christianity so we ought not highlight the heresies in Mormonism) in an effort to give credibility to the fabrications of Joe and company.

I have asked you privately, and even apologized privately for anything I have done to offend you, now I am asking you publicly, to ping me on posts about my posts.

If you are going to talk about me, at least have the courage to do so to my face.

Thank you.

[DelphiUser]

To which of Joesph Smith's accounts of the first vision do you refer; the suppressed 1832 account where he only mentions Jesus appearing to him or the 1835 account which mentions "angels" but not God or Jesus?

I refer to the one I linked to previously on this thread, the only version canonized by the church, not hearsay versions written by Colofornian (although his is amusing) or anyone else.

You believe in the credibility of a man who said:

I believe a man who died knowing that recanting his testimony would save him over anyone else’s pajama clad person, hiding behind a screen name.

A flesh and bone Father, or a Father who is a personage of spirit?

Flesh and Bone personages also have a spirit, just as you are a spirit.

Written by Joseph Smith in 1835, why was the following deleted in 1921?

I was not consulted in any editing, if there was any, (Do you have a link to a credible source on this?) nor do I really care since “Personage of Spirit” and “Personage of Flesh and Bone” are equally accurate since he has both, but nice try.

Since that was written in 1835 why does LDS today teach that that Joseph Smith discovered that both God the Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bone when he saw them in his First Vision in 1820, and why did the LDS delete the passage in 1921?

Maybe it was deleted, if it was, because a few people became confused by it. That is one of the things about having a modern day prophet, you continue to get direction.

Why would anyone be inclined to accept a characterization of ancient church history from people who can't even get their own comparatively recent history straight?

I am not confused about history my FRiend.

I cannot help but notice your lack of linkage, perhaps you could not find a web based source for your bald unsupported assertions. I would be happy to help you look, if you will just post the information on the paper based book, I will devote at least 1/2 hour looking for it for you.

I also note that the substance of my post is completely untouched by you, was any of my links in error? Did Constantine not call, open, attend and close the council at Nicea? Was he not a pagan? Did he not then make the Catholic church into the State church of Rome? Please, rather tan filling the screen with red herrings and innuendo provide us with some substance with which to continue a conversation.

I hope you have a wonderful and illuminating day.

[MHGinTN]

See what I mean, the arrogance and condescension are dripping from the screen with that one.

[Colofornian]

I refer to the one I linked to previously on this thread, the only version canonized by the church, not hearsay versions written by Colofornian (although his is amusing) or anyone else.

Hey, we have more in common here than you think. I also find these other non-canonized versions amusing, too!!! :)

Especially another version from Joseph Smith's own diary, written by his own hand, and then also the 1841 JS version that he wrote in 1841 to John Wentworth, editor of the Chicago Democrat.

BTW, why do you find these versions amusing? And why do you reduce one he dictated to F.G. Williams as mere "hearsay." (Can we throw out as suspect everything else JS dictated?...Boy, that would sure be a chunk of material, wouldn't it?)

So, "hearsay" wise I guess that only leaves a Warren Cowdery-recorded diary on behalf of JS, and then what all the LDS prophets said they heard 2nd hand about that vision. (I guess they, too, are "suspect" witnesses, eh?)

[tantiboh]

It’s cute how you dismiss disagreement by labeling it arrogance. No, really, it’s very charming.

[Colofornian]

There is a patriarchal order, of which if and when you become a God you would be part of. But (and it’s a big but too) that has nothing to do with God’s authority over you as a creation of his.

Finally getting around to following up on this. You seem to keep bringing the convo back to God's authority over me; and I keep trying to bring the convo back to God's derived authority--something He didn't inherently have.

Eternal does not always mean the same thing in the scriptures. Eternal is one of God’s names so an eternal covenant (Like Moses’ covenant) was with God, not supposed to be forever...

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. [This one's for Tantiboh, too, based on his earlier invite to "explore common ground" as to how Joe redefined terms]. Joseph redefined "damnation" as being all "damned up"--as stoppage, not as eternal hell fire. The problem is that you've never read the Bible and the Book of Mormon with this "new" def of "eternal" or "damnation." (Just try it). The prob is that the same "adjective" (be it eternal, everlasting, etc.) is applied to heaven just like hell. If hell can be stopped; if spirit prison is just a lousy vacation at a scumbag motel; then that doesn't say much positive about the longevity of heaven, now does it [Because the same exact qualifiers used to describe hell in the BoM & the Bible are used to describe heaven].

So much for "perspective." [What? You can't even read the Bible or BoM w/out a JoeSmith decoder ring to find out what "plain" meanings have been changed from the BoM. I'll I can say is how utterly misleading that is to someone reading the BoM...to not have the D&C passage where Joe redefines "damnation" so that they could realize that "No, the BoM, REALLY IS different than the Bible."]

Me: So, simply put, an orginal god or a council of gods authorized the progression of others to join them as either a "greater council" or gods, or to progress from man to god. [Either way, it was "authorized"]

You: Now you are going off the path here. God the father authorized it. This is his universe; he needs no permission from anyone....God the Father is self-contained.

Let me introduce some other quotes (which also) has "educated" me on what LDS believe:

“The doctrine of a plurality of Gods is prominent in the Bible. The heads of the Gods appointed our God for us...you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves…the same as all Gods have done before you…” Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 370-372, 346

Question: Doesn't your Heavenly Father, having rec'd an "appointment" as God, mean that He rec'd His authority from these "plurality of Gods?"

“We shall go back to our Father and God, who is connected with one who is still farther back; and this Father is connected with one still farther back, and so on.” Heber C. Kimball, JoD, vol. 5, p. 19

This further emphasizes my previous "so on" comment. How is this quote above distinct from my "computer language" comment about infinite regression of gods?

“our God is a natural man...where did he get his knowledge from? From his father, just as we get our knowledge from our earthly parents (JoD, vol. 8, p. 211)

Doesn't LDS directly tie "knowledge" and "authority?" Doesn't this tell about a divine generation upon generation of both knowledge & authority?

“our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; ‘He was begotten by a still more ancient Father; and so on from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another.” Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 132

Yet another "so on" comment similar to my previous comment.

Orson Pratt taught that “The Gods who dwell in heaven…were once in a fallen state….” The Seer p. 23 [whereas Mormon 9:19; Moroni 8:18; Mormon 9:9-11 all say unchangeable]

“We believe in a God who is Himself progressive...whose perfection consists in eternal advancement...a Being who has attained His exalted state” (A Study of the Articles of Faith, pp. 430, 1952 James Talmage

There we have it. If you have a "fallen being" God...one who progressed and will advance eternally, as Talmage wrote; obviously, the "un-advanced"--the "lower degree progressives" at one point held less authority. And, I would point out, "fallen beings" could not have had much authority at all--certainly not divine authority.

All of this de fact proves a line of authority extending beyond your God.

[MHGinTN]

Strike one ...